Opportunities for political and social reform post-Brexit

hollandia

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Much of the focus of political debate surrounding Brexit has focused on the economic impact of a bad brexit or what opportunities might come Ireland's way as a result of the UK returning it's membership cards, dramatically sweeping it's scarf around its neck and haughtily saying to the EU, "I bid you good day, Sir."

Politically and socially, for historic reasons, Ireland's political and social model is essentially the same as that of the UK (the one main difference being the electoral system for parliament). But the permanent government - the public service, is essentially a British construct. The influences of the British political scene are writ large across our public life, from the Thatcherite policies of FG vis a vis the economy, to the New Labour style media management of Sinn Fein (and latterly Leo).

Politically and socially, I believe the country is stagnant. The HSE has been an unmitigated unwieldy disaster. Public transport infrastructure is decrepid, over-priced and not really of much use to the bulk of the country for the purposes of getting to and from work. The social housing crisis now has overtones of those who were decried during the boom as "economic traitors", whereby anyone calling out government policy is "talking down the country in front of the guests".

Compared to the experience on the continent, we are light years behind. Yes, there are problems there too, no country is entirely free of homelessness, there are traffic problems in Paris and Rome, and so on and so on. However, in my experience of living in Europe, they, on the whole, do things much better there.

For example - 2.8% of all our journeys are made by rail. Compared with 8.8% in the Netherlands, 9.5% in France and 11.5% in the Austria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage

Why might this be? Decades of underinvestment in rail? Railways that don't get you to where you need to be on time?

No, it's a british thing whereby we don't pay for things that are expensive, even though the long term benefits will outweigh the initial outlay.

On the continent, the railway is viewed as something precious. It is subsidised to encourage use. It is relied upon for the commute. Here it seems to be viewed as a millstone.

I use the railways as one example, only to start the conversation. What, p.iesters, could we learn from Europe and begin to do well as we begin to socially and politically diverge from the UK?
 


Deadlock

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Much of the focus of political debate surrounding Brexit has focused on the economic impact of a bad brexit or what opportunities might come Ireland's way as a result of the UK returning it's membership cards, dramatically sweeping it's scarf around its neck and haughtily saying to the EU, "I bid you good day, Sir."

Politically and socially, for historic reasons, Ireland's political and social model is essentially the same as that of the UK (the one main difference being the electoral system for parliament). But the permanent government - the public service, is essentially a British construct. The influences of the British political scene are writ large across our public life, from the Thatcherite policies of FG vis a vis the economy, to the New Labour style media management of Sinn Fein (and latterly Leo).

Politically and socially, I believe the country is stagnant. The HSE has been an unmitigated unwieldy disaster. Public transport infrastructure is decrepid, over-priced and not really of much use to the bulk of the country for the purposes of getting to and from work. The social housing crisis now has overtones of those who were decried during the boom as "economic traitors", whereby anyone calling out government policy is "talking down the country in front of the guests".

Compared to the experience on the continent, we are light years behind. Yes, there are problems there too, no country is entirely free of homelessness, there are traffic problems in Paris and Rome, and so on and so on. However, in my experience of living in Europe, they, on the whole, do things much better there.

For example - 2.8% of all our journeys are made by rail. Compared with 8.8% in the Netherlands, 9.5% in France and 11.5% in the Austria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage

Why might this be? Decades of underinvestment in rail? Railways that don't get you to where you need to be on time?

No, it's a british thing whereby we don't pay for things that are expensive, even though the long term benefits will outweigh the initial outlay.

On the continent, the railway is viewed as something precious. It is subsidised to encourage use. It is relied upon for the commute. Here it seems to be viewed as a millstone.

I use the railways as one example, only to start the conversation. What, p.iesters, could we learn from Europe and begin to do well as we begin to socially and politically diverge from the UK?

Proper regional governance - properly funded and effective. Ireland is absolutely crying out for it, and it would free the Dail and Seanad up to face national issues.
 

ruserious

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Proper regional governance - properly funded and effective. Ireland is absolutely crying out for it, and it would free the Dail and Seanad up to face national issues.
I've long favoured provincial parliaments. Dáil an Mhumhain for Munster as an example. Devolve significant autonomy to these parliaments for issues such as health, education etc and have Dáil Éireann then for national matters such as foreign affairs, defence etc. It would make a United Ireland more appealing to have an autonomous parliament in Ulster.
 

hollandia

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I've long favoured provincial parliaments. Dáil an Mhumhain for Munster as an example. Devolve significant autonomy to these parliaments for issues such as health, education etc and have Dáil Éireann then for national matters such as foreign affairs, defence etc. It would make a United Ireland more appealing to have an autonomous parliament in Ulster.
How long before you push for Dáil Corcaigh? (Joke)

There is merit in that proposal alright. Let that be the place for getting potholes mending.

As an aside, what I was impressed with in the Netherlands was the compulsory subsidised private healthcare, with provisions made for those who, for whatever reason could not afford it. Also (I'm not 100% percent sure on this) they have compulsory private pensions. And the thirteen payment periods with double holiday pay one month a year was pretty good in my opinion.

Imagine how much less you'd be paying to the banks with thirteen monthly repayments, instead of twelve? Certainly something worth considering.
 

Roll_On

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Much of the focus of political debate surrounding Brexit has focused on the economic impact of a bad brexit or what opportunities might come Ireland's way as a result of the UK returning it's membership cards, dramatically sweeping it's scarf around its neck and haughtily saying to the EU, "I bid you good day, Sir."

Politically and socially, for historic reasons, Ireland's political and social model is essentially the same as that of the UK (the one main difference being the electoral system for parliament). But the permanent government - the public service, is essentially a British construct. The influences of the British political scene are writ large across our public life, from the Thatcherite policies of FG vis a vis the economy, to the New Labour style media management of Sinn Fein (and latterly Leo).

Politically and socially, I believe the country is stagnant. The HSE has been an unmitigated unwieldy disaster. Public transport infrastructure is decrepid, over-priced and not really of much use to the bulk of the country for the purposes of getting to and from work. The social housing crisis now has overtones of those who were decried during the boom as "economic traitors", whereby anyone calling out government policy is "talking down the country in front of the guests".

Compared to the experience on the continent, we are light years behind. Yes, there are problems there too, no country is entirely free of homelessness, there are traffic problems in Paris and Rome, and so on and so on. However, in my experience of living in Europe, they, on the whole, do things much better there.

For example - 2.8% of all our journeys are made by rail. Compared with 8.8% in the Netherlands, 9.5% in France and 11.5% in the Austria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage

Why might this be? Decades of underinvestment in rail? Railways that don't get you to where you need to be on time?

No, it's a british thing whereby we don't pay for things that are expensive, even though the long term benefits will outweigh the initial outlay.

On the continent, the railway is viewed as something precious. It is subsidised to encourage use. It is relied upon for the commute. Here it seems to be viewed as a millstone.

I use the railways as one example, only to start the conversation. What, p.iesters, could we learn from Europe and begin to do well as we begin to socially and politically diverge from the UK?
Regarding rail, Ireland has 2 problems: 1) under investment/ well no investment at all really.
2)ruralisation. 40% of our population live in rural areas due to bad planning.
 

hollandia

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Regarding rail, Ireland has 2 problems: 1) under investment/ well no investment at all really.
2)ruralisation. 40% of our population live in rural areas due to bad planning.
Could it be that most of our jobs are in Dublin/Urban areas due to bad planning?
 

devoutcapitalist

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1) A list electoral system with legislation stating that a political party needs to have a minimum 4% of the vote to have seats in the Dail.
2) Abolish multi seat constituencies.
 

Spanner Island

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Could it be that most of our jobs are in Dublin/Urban areas due to bad planning?
Bad planning definitely exists here but the ongoing nonsense that seeks to have jobs spread out all around the country is nonsense...

Cities exist for reasons and Ireland only has one significant city and is probably only capable of having one due to our relatively small size.

Decentralisation and trying to force businesses to locate in the arse end of nowhere has failed and will continue to fail...

Plus when we have sh!te like Shell to Sea and the Apple Athenry debacle which our shambolic legal system indulges... well... even when opportunities arise they're opposed...

Our legal system could certainly do with a massive overhaul... that's for feckin' sure.
 

hollandia

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Bad planning definitely exists here but the ongoing nonsense that seeks to have jobs spread out all around the country is nonsense...

Cities exist for reasons and Ireland only has one significant city and is probably only capable of having one due to our relatively small size.

Decentralisation and trying to force businesses to locate in the arse end of nowhere has failed and will continue to fail...

Plus when we have sh!te like Shell to Sea and the Apple Athenry debacle which our shambolic legal system indulges... well... even when opportunities arise they're opposed...

Our legal system could certainly do with a massive overhaul... that's for feckin' sure.
That's nonsense. Proper transport links are what make cities viable, not the size of the country. The rest I agree with, particularly the long overdue revamping of the legal system. Particular attention needs to be paid to sentencing for recidivists, and for fraud. If people start getting banged up for ripping us off, then things will change pretty rapidly.
 

Spanner Island

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That's nonsense. Proper transport links are what make cities viable, not the size of the country. The rest I agree with, particularly the long overdue revamping of the legal system. Particular attention needs to be paid to sentencing for recidivists, and for fraud. If people start getting banged up for ripping us off, then things will change pretty rapidly.
In time... when there's a few million more of us there might be a couple of significant cities viable... Dublin and Cork would be the obvious options...

As it is though... Dublin isn't even that significant a city now... there's only 1.5 million people in the greater Dublin area covering a footprint that is far too large for that number of people...

Urban sprawl is a curse...

We need a denser Dublin with proper high rise in dedicated zones... Dublin Docklands being an obvious such zone as well as around Heuston Station.

I'd favour publicly elected mayors with real powers in our cities too - as long as Owen Keegan would be prohibited from standing in Dublin...
 

statsman

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Much of the focus of political debate surrounding Brexit has focused on the economic impact of a bad brexit or what opportunities might come Ireland's way as a result of the UK returning it's membership cards, dramatically sweeping it's scarf around its neck and haughtily saying to the EU, "I bid you good day, Sir."

Politically and socially, for historic reasons, Ireland's political and social model is essentially the same as that of the UK (the one main difference being the electoral system for parliament). But the permanent government - the public service, is essentially a British construct. The influences of the British political scene are writ large across our public life, from the Thatcherite policies of FG vis a vis the economy, to the New Labour style media management of Sinn Fein (and latterly Leo).

Politically and socially, I believe the country is stagnant. The HSE has been an unmitigated unwieldy disaster. Public transport infrastructure is decrepid, over-priced and not really of much use to the bulk of the country for the purposes of getting to and from work. The social housing crisis now has overtones of those who were decried during the boom as "economic traitors", whereby anyone calling out government policy is "talking down the country in front of the guests".

Compared to the experience on the continent, we are light years behind. Yes, there are problems there too, no country is entirely free of homelessness, there are traffic problems in Paris and Rome, and so on and so on. However, in my experience of living in Europe, they, on the whole, do things much better there.

For example - 2.8% of all our journeys are made by rail. Compared with 8.8% in the Netherlands, 9.5% in France and 11.5% in the Austria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_usage

Why might this be? Decades of underinvestment in rail? Railways that don't get you to where you need to be on time?

No, it's a british thing whereby we don't pay for things that are expensive, even though the long term benefits will outweigh the initial outlay.

On the continent, the railway is viewed as something precious. It is subsidised to encourage use. It is relied upon for the commute. Here it seems to be viewed as a millstone.

I use the railways as one example, only to start the conversation. What, p.iesters, could we learn from Europe and begin to do well as we begin to socially and politically diverge from the UK?
A complete re-write of Bunreacht to remove the preamble and any articles or subsections that should be covered by legislation or not at all:
  1. Divorce and marriage in general
  2. Censorship
  3. Women in the family
  4. Blasphemy
  5. And do on.
Then a proper public debate about the true nature of a Republic.
 

Roll_On

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Could it be that most of our jobs are in Dublin/Urban areas due to bad planning?
No. That is where the vast majority of employment is in industrialised nations. It is the most economically and environmentally sustainable model for economic development.

Our cities should have been extended in the 1920s in a Barcelona style to accommodate influxes of workers as we transitioned away from an agricultural economy. But of course FF had other ideas, modernity was 'too english'.
 

hollandia

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A complete re-write of Bunreacht to remove the preamble and any articles or subsections that should be covered by legislation or not at all:
  1. Divorce and marriage in general
  2. Censorship
  3. Women in the family
  4. Blasphemy
  5. And do on.
Then a proper public debate about the true nature of a Republic.
Absolutely. A complete redrafting of the constitution - put to the people at one sitting to be voted on clause by clause, with a moratorium on referenda for ten years to prevent tinkering, and to allow the effects of that vote to sink in.
 

hollandia

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No. That is where the vast majority of employment is in industrialised nations. It is the most economically and environmentally sustainable model for economic development.

Our cities should have been extended in the 1920s in a Barcelona style to accommodate influxes of workers as we transitioned away from an agricultural economy. But of course FF had other ideas, modernity was 'too english'.
In most countries the vast majority of employment is not centred in one city. That is an undeniable fact.
 

statsman

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Roll_On

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In most countries the vast majority of employment is not centred in one city. That is an undeniable fact.
Yes it is, in countries of our size anyway. Denmark, Norway, Finland etc. Anywhere with 3-7 million people generally only has one city of international significance. This is convenient for those countries, they are relatively small, they only provide for one major airport which acts as the countries gateway to the world and they have a City just large enough to attract significant global players and certain industries that need a large population base.

Other countries that are polycentric are relative superpowers with massive populations like Germany and Spain.
 

hollandia

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Yes it is, in countries of our size anyway. Denmark, Norway, Finland etc. Anywhere with 3-7 million people generally only has one city of international significance. This is convenient for those countries, they are relatively small, they only provide for one major airport which acts as the countries gateway to the world and they have a City just large enough to attract significant global players and certain industries that need a large population base.

Other countries that are polycentric are relative superpowers with massive populations like Germany and Spain.
Denmark - Copenhagen 580k, Aarhus 270k, Odense 175k
Norway - Oslo 645k, Bergen 250k, Stavanger 210k, Trondheim 175k
Netherlands - Amsterdam - 740k, Rotterdam 600k, Den Haag, 475k, utrecht 290k, Eindhoven 210k

Much better population spreads than here.
 

Roll_On

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Denmark - Copenhagen 580k, Aarhus 270k, Odense 175k
Norway - Oslo 645k, Bergen 250k, Stavanger 210k, Trondheim 175k
Netherlands - Amsterdam - 740k, Rotterdam 600k, Den Haag, 475k, utrecht 290k, Eindhoven 210k

Much better population spreads than here.
Negating metropolitan areas of course, which is a more accurate indicator of a cities gravity. The Netherlands is hardly a usable example, it's cities are a continuous urban area.
 

HarshBuzz

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Denmark - Copenhagen 580k, Aarhus 270k, Odense 175k
Norway - Oslo 645k, Bergen 250k, Stavanger 210k, Trondheim 175k
Netherlands - Amsterdam - 740k, Rotterdam 600k, Den Haag, 475k, utrecht 290k, Eindhoven 210k

Much better population spreads than here.
We're a historically rural people and a country that, a few pockets excepted, has never had heavy industry or mining.
 

wombat

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Could it be that most of our jobs are in Dublin/Urban areas due to bad planning?
More to do with the type of employment on offer. Decentralisation of govt departments worked up to a point but McCreevey decided there should be one at every cross roads so nobody wanted to move. Private investment tends to cluster around cities and Dublin is really the only city on a European scale. Brexit is an opportunity to persuade people that developing the south coast as an alternative to Dublin is feasable but it will mean concentrating development there rather than trying to spread it thinly.
 


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