Opposition party scrutiny of opposition bills

lostexpectation

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There some comment on the amount of private members bills being started in the Dail, most of them go nowhere, either delayed by the government and FF or by backlogs in the committee, there also questions over the quality of the bills, partly because there opposition parties didn't have the legal help the government have (although this has been reviewed and they are is being given more reseources) but they can be still used as self-promotion tool for months despite all these problems.

I've noticed that small parties and independents groups are voting for opposition bills without any of their party or Dail group speaking on the bill, so whether they support the entire bill or just parts of it, the proposing party can claim support even if there are huge flaws in the bills or their justifications.

The opposition party's refrain is that it can be fixed in the committee stage, and that is where most of the work on the bill occurs, committee officials help the politicians write a report scrutinising the bill and asking for the governments and stakeholders views on them and then proposing amendments.

But second stage is supposed to be where the general principles of the bills are discussed and I've noticed a few bills where the opposition parties don't seem to have considered the principles of the bills.

Soldarity say they are supporting the Sinn Fein's Extreme Weather (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2018
but during second stage they didn't mention one half of the bill about threatening to arrest people who might, say surf on the morning before a storm during a red weather alert, and be accused of risking the life of the of rescue workers they may or MAY NOT need help from.

now the Irish Coast Guard and Irish Water Safety both already said they didn't agree with legislating to criminalise this behaviour.

"The Irish Coast Guard and Irish Water Safety concur, and believe legislation would be almost impossible to implement fairly" https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/should-we-punish-reckless-people-who-need-to-be-rescued-1.3262109

Irish Coastguard Director Not In Favour Of Legislating "For Stupidity" 04/20/2018 .Listen: Irish Coastguard Director Not In Favour Of Legislating "For Stupidity". | Kfm Radio

Paul Murphy's spoke on the bill but only on the half of the bill related to workers being allowed off work and still being paid during a red weather alert, his spokeperson thinks its ok to ignore the other half bill even with significant organisations disagreeing with the concept of the legislation.

I also have pointed out false claims in the FF Online Social Media Transparancy bill which the Socdems and Greens didn't speak on at second stage but did vote for.

Catherine Murphy spokesperson refuses to acknowlege the problems with a section of the bill she voted for, and also said she hasn't fully considered the Extreme Weather bill and missed the opportunity to express her thoughts on it at second stage https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-04-19a.357#g383 it will be voted on this Thursday
 
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hollandia

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Excellent OP. A rare thing these days as we slide inexorably to being stormfront light.

On the bill you mention - particularly the first half of the bill relating to dealing with those who endanger emergency teams - think this is actually a good idea, but I'd like to see the detail of this rather than a headline. I'm sure this can be tweaked to remove the unfairness that is claimed by the emergency services.

In other countries, where they are more used to extreme weather events, this is managed quite well, and perhaps we can learn from them.
 

lostexpectation

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Excellent OP. A rare thing these days as we slide inexorably to being stormfront light.

On the bill you mention - particularly the first half of the bill relating to dealing with those who endanger emergency teams - think this is actually a good idea, but I'd like to see the detail of this rather than a headline. I'm sure this can be tweaked to remove the unfairness that is claimed by the emergency services.

In other countries, where they are more used to extreme weather events, this is managed quite well, and perhaps we can learn from them.

"The Irish Coast Guard and Irish Water Safety concur, and believe legislation would be almost impossible to implement fairly" Should we punish reckless people who need to be rescued Irish Times.

Listen: Irish Coastguard Director Not In Favour Of Legislating "For Stupidity". | Kfm Radio 04/20/2018

those comments are about the general principle of the bill, to me they don't seem like comments about tweaking' or making amendments... "almost impossible" "we shouldn't legislate"...!


I should say that both FF and FG have said they'll vote against this bill so it won't proceed, but FF want their own version of the 'arrest people who may or may not need to be rescued' part of the bill will the Solidarity party have talked to the stakeholders by then or continue to ignore them?

Im not convinced of the OP myself, there are scores of private members bills now, how are other parties meant to consider them all at 2nd stage? The TDs spokespeople I've asked about it say the TDs/parties are happy to vote for the bills to go to commmittee stage but I don't think they've actually looked at them properly, maybe Im misinterpreting what 2nd stage is for, they see them as bills that can be worked on, but when I point out what I think are complete flaws in the concept of the bill they have no answer for me. Again I think they havn't consider them properly. Should parties simply not vote for them at all, would that mean their bills that they have done research on wouldn't get voted for ?
 
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lostexpectation

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Oireachtas has published a briefing on PMBs https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2018/2018-06-15_l-rs-note-private-members-bills-pmbs-admissibility-government-messages-and-detailed-scrutiny_en.pdf


the problem is that there is no official process of consultations with stakeholders before the bill is introducted to the Dail unlike with some/most? government bills now https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2014/2014-12-18_spotlight-pre-legislative-scrutiny-by-parliament_en.pdf none at the first or second stage, yet TDs can claim support from NGOs but the public can't see that or see the pros and cons being discussed in committee for eg. Then the TDs can say they have in bill in Dail for months but as shown above it doesn't mean its any good as have gotten scurtiny from others parties.
 
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making waves

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Th government have been indiscriminately using the 'Money Matters' rule to shaft PMBs - the latest attempt is trying to shaft Solidarity's Objective Sex Education Bill - a Bill that requires a change in approach - not a hat-full of money.
 

lostexpectation

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Th government have been indiscriminately using the 'Money Matters' rule to shaft PMBs - the latest attempt is trying to shaft Solidarity's Objective Sex Education Bill - a Bill that requires a change in approach - not a hat-full of money.
is the bill going through 'detailed scrutiny' as is described in the briefing?
 
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making waves

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is the bill going through 'detailed scrutiny' as is described in the briefing?
Nope - Solidarty received a letter that it was being ruled out because of 'Money Matters' - the government knew they couldn't get away with emasculating it at committee - that is why Solidarity are looking for people to lobby their TDs and raise the issue publicly to get it brought through committee stage.
 

lostexpectation

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Nope - Solidarty received a letter that it was being ruled out because of 'Money Matters' - the government knew they couldn't get away with emasculating it at committee - that is why Solidarity are looking for people to lobby their TDs and raise the issue publicly to get it brought through committee stage.
the committee does not require a message to do 'detailed scrutiny' as described in the briefing
Although a PMB which incurs a charge or expenditure cannot proceed to formal Committee Stage without a Money Message/Financial Resolution from Government, neither Message is required for a Bill which passes second stage to undergo ‘Detailed Scrutiny’ by the relevant Select or Joint Committee.
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2018/2018-06-15_l-rs-note-private-members-bills-pmbs-admissibility-government-messages-and-detailed-scrutiny_en.pdf
 
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fifilawe

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just say that the bill proposed by Solidarty was proposed by a backbencher of the ruling party instead, would the executive proceed to the next stage without any objections as it was a bill that was for the good of the public in general? Is there a panel of legal experts employed in the Oireachtas to filter out impossible proposals , and advise on proceedings through the Oireachtas.It would stop a lot of "Rubbish proposals" getting airtime and holding up other bills proceeding.
 

lostexpectation

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just say that the bill proposed by Solidarty was proposed by a backbencher of the ruling party instead, would the executive proceed to the next stage without any objections as it was a bill that was for the good of the public in general? Is there a panel of legal experts employed in the Oireachtas to filter out impossible proposals , and advise on proceedings through the Oireachtas.It would stop a lot of "Rubbish proposals" getting airtime and holding up other bills proceeding.
backbenchers PMBs are supposed to get the same treatment

there area few legal experts hired by the Oireachtas to techinically help oppositions TDs write bills there are legal experts who reviews bills, there are constitutional reviews of legislation and with regard to cost, but they don't go that deeply into the bill, so rubbish bills still get through, blame the other oppossition TDs for that.
 

lostexpectation

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fifilawe

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backbenchers PMBs are supposed to get the same treatment

there area few legal experts hired by the Oireachtas to techinically help oppositions TDs write bills there are legal experts who reviews bills, there are constitutional reviews of legislation and with regard to cost, but they don't go that deeply into the bill, so rubbish bills still get through, blame the other oppossition TDs for that.
That explains why there are so many cases going to the High Court, Supreme Court because the "scrutiny and diligence " on drafting up pieces of legislation is so poor.Even the Constitutional experts have made a Boll**** of the constitutional and referendum amendments in the past , so we are almost annually having a referendum to amend crap getting on the law books that is rubbish.I expect no change in the future , same old , same old.
 

lostexpectation

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That explains why there are so many cases going to the High Court, Supreme Court because the "scrutiny and diligence " on drafting up pieces of legislation is so poor.Even the Constitutional experts have made a Boll**** of the constitutional and referendum amendments in the past , so we are almost annually having a referendum to amend crap getting on the law books that is rubbish.I expect no change in the future , same old , same old.
im not aware of any private members bills that have been challenged in the courts are you?
 

lostexpectation

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