Our West Brit President Declines To Attend The Soloheadbeg Commeration.


jmcc

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Fintan O’Toole’s article to today’s IT is spot on. Soloheadbeg was an act that was incompatible with the principles of any democratic law based state.
Hardly a newspaper with a glorious past concerning the War of Independence. It even censored its 1916 centenary edition to remove the "Sinn Fein Rebellion" headline. And one of its former owners offered to spy on Irish people for British Intelligence. O'Toole is just a gombeen praising a "Croppy Lie Down" strategy. There's a very funny clip on Youtube of a discussion on the Late Late Show where O'Toole's argument on Irish nationalism gets destroyed by a singer from the Wolfe Tones.

On Irish Nationalism, O'Toole has a long history of supporting the British. You certainly seem to regret that Irish independence was achieved.
 

Talk Back

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the IRA are murderers, cowards and pedo enablers

human sewage :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
All armies murder moron - and Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, who have been in power in the 'Southern Ireland' State for decades, and could have done something about pedophilia, instead, aided and abetted the pedophiles.
 

freewillie

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Talk Back

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Speech by Seán Russell in October 1939....



The IRA’s Plan Kathleen would have turned Ireland into a WW2 battle zone with the IRA on the side of the Germans fighting against the British. I’m pretty sure Breen would have been on the wrong side.
Some Irish people are very confused.

The Nazis were pussycats compared to the English - England is responsible for the murder of countless millions of people in the countries it invaded and occupied around the world over the centuries.

Ireland is a prime example of genocide and ethnic cleansing perpetuated by England and its Unionists planted in our country.

Ireland and England are supposed to have had similar populations when our historical and hereditary enemy first invaded and occupied our country.

Now England has a population of nearly 55 million, and Ireland only has a population of about 6 million - but nearly a million of them are foreign Unionist stock.

Just remember who our real enemy is.
 

Estragon

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Seán Russell believed that a Nazi victory would bring about a United Ireland. Anyone who thinks that a Nazi victory was price worth paying is a deluded fool. Seán Russell was a Nazi collaborator. Breen was a Nazi sympathiser.
Great masses of the British establishment were self-declared Nazi sympathisers.

After the war, when the full horror of the concentration camps was known to all, the British government continued it's policy of attempting to restrict Jewish emigration to Palestine, often at the point of a gun. The reason? To protect its selfish geopolitical interests in Iraqi oil and access to the Suez canal. Prior to the war Britain, like practically every other country in the world, with a few notable exceptions, left the Jews to stew in their own juices. To pretend the British were fighting Germany for anything other than their own interests is to be willfully naive.

No side covers itself in glory when it comes to the Nazis during the second world war. However you focus on Russell as if he was the embodiment of a significant strain of thought in Irish society.

The point is, in the Irish case, people like Russell - one-eyed nationalists, were very much a fringe element. In Britain, they were deciding policy.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Great masses of the British establishment were self-declared Nazi sympathisers.

After the war, when the full horror of the concentration camps was known to all, the British government continued it's policy of attempting to restrict Jewish emigration to Palestine, often at the point of a gun. The reason? To protect its selfish geopolitical interests in Iraqi oil and access to the Suez canal. Prior to the war Britain, like practically every other country in the world, with a few notable exceptions, left the Jews to stew in their own juices. To pretend the British were fighting Germany for anything other than their own interests is to be willfully naive.

No side covers itself in glory when it comes to the Nazis during the second world war. However you focus on Russell as if he was the embodiment of a significant strain of thought in Irish society.

The point is, in the Irish case, people like Russell - one-eyed nationalists, were very much a fringe element. In Britain, they were deciding policy.
British restrictions on Jewish emigration to Palestine were due to its competing obligations to the majority Arab population. The last intention was to hand over control to an independent mixed Jewish Palestinian state. At the time it was a reasonable and responsible limitation.

Of course Britain fought against Germany for its own interests. It was in the interest of all democracies to see Nazi germany defeated. “One eyed nationalists” like Russell, Breen were blind to that broader common interests of fellow democrats, be they Irish, British, French etc.

I focus on Breen and Russell because they were not a fringe element within republicans of that period. The IRA were engaged in joint enterprise with Nazi germany against Britain and therefore against the national interests of all democracies.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Hardly a newspaper with a glorious past concerning the War of Independence. It even censored its 1916 centenary edition to remove the "Sinn Fein Rebellion" headline. And one of its former owners offered to spy on Irish people for British Intelligence. O'Toole is just a gombeen praising a "Croppy Lie Down" strategy. There's a very funny clip on Youtube of a discussion on the Late Late Show where O'Toole's argument on Irish nationalism gets destroyed by a singer from the Wolfe Tones.

On Irish Nationalism, O'Toole has a long history of supporting the British. You certainly seem to regret that Irish independence was achieved.
I wouldn’t be taking history lessons from the Wolf Tones.

I am very glad that we are an independent state within the EU. I hope, in time, we’ll have a 32 county republic....I just have a different opinion from the Wolf Tones as to what’s the best way to achieve that.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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@jmcc

.....following on from O’Connells membership of the militia

..... what say you about Wolf Tone’s proposal to William Pitt that Tone set up a British military base and colony on the Sandwich Islands and use it to attack Spanish interests in that area. I’d love to hear the Wolf Tones singing about the planned southern seas adventures of the bould British imperialist Wolf Tone.
 

jmcc

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I wouldn’t be taking history lessons from the Wolf Tones.
O'Toole is not a historian. You should be wary of taking lessons on Irish history from a clueless Castle Catholic like O'Toole and the rest in the "Irish" Times.
 
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jmcc

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@jmcc

.....following on from O’Connells membership of the militia
There does seem to be a lot of greenwashing of O'Connell's membership of the Loyalist militia. He doesn't seem any different to the current the gombeens on the make like Mary Robinson and in FF/FG/Labour in the way that they talk the talk but don't walk the walk. One can see how O'Toole might be convincing to people who read the Irish Times and believe everything in it.

..... what say you about Wolf Tone’s proposal to William Pitt that Tone set up a British military base and colony on the Sandwich Islands and use it to attack Spanish interests in that area. I’d love to hear the Wolf Tones singing about the southern seas adventures of the bould British imperialist Wolf Tone.
Don't really care. The Wolfe Tones showed Tintin up as a fool on the Late Late Show.
 
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Nebuchadnezzar

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There does seem to be a lot of greenwashing of O'Connell's membership of the Loyalist militia. He doesn't seem any different the gombeens on the make like Mary Robinson and in FF/FG/Labour in the way that they talk the talk but don't walk the walk. One can see how O'Toole might be convincing to people who read the Irish Times and believe everything in it.

Don't really care. The Wolfe Tones showed Tintin up as a fool on the Late Late Show.
Per my previous post that you ignored, O’Connell’s membership of the militia was the norm and the expected of all young barristers and he used his membership in the interests of the United Irishmen of which he was also a member.

If William Pitt had accepted Tone’s plan the Wolf Tones might have ended up singing ballads about how he established British Rule over the Falklands.
 
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jmcc

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Per my previous post that you ignored, O’Connell’s membership of the militia was the norm and the expected of all young barristers and he used his membership in the interests of the United Irishmen of which he was also a member.
O'Connell wasn't a Nationalist. He wasn't a Republican. He wanted Home Rule with Ireland as part of the UK. There's a long history of that sentiment in the "Irish" Times and evidently you seem to support it.

If William Peel had accepted Tone’s plan the Wolf Tones might have ended up singing ballads about how he established British Rule over the Falklands.
So what! It didn't happen.
 

Talk Back

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I wouldn’t be taking history lessons from the Wolf Tones.

I am very glad that we are an independent state within the EU. I hope, in time, we’ll have a 32 county republic....I just have a different opinion from the Wolf Tones as to what’s the best way to achieve that.
You are in your own little fantasy world - history has proven that the only way we get the parasite that is England to loosen its grip on Ireland is through violence - I include the GFA in that. It was violence that made England come to the table and sue for peace - which in turn brought down the sectarian Orange Statelet in Ireland.

I'm not condoning nor condemning violence - I am stating the facts.
 

freewillie

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You are in your own little fantasy world - history has proven that the only way we get the parasite that is England to loosen its grip on Ireland is through violence - I include the GFA in that. It was violence that made England come to the table and sue for peace - which in turn brought down the sectarian Orange Statelet in Ireland.

I'm not condoning nor condemning violence - I am stating the facts.
It was violence which brought both sides to the table and the reality that neither side would win by violence
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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Russell spent three months training with German the special operations unit, the Brandenburg Regiment, during 1940. During that time Stephen Hayes’ IRA Plan Kathleen invasion plan arrived in Berlin....a plan that invisaged IRA units directly supporting a german invasion of Northern Ireland.....with German troops landing in Derry with a simultaneous cross border attack from Leitrim by the IRA. A hairbrained scheme. On August 1940, just prior to his submarine voyage to Ireland, Russell had a meeting with head of German Intelligence Admiral Canaris and with von Ribbentrop. Russell was very much part of the IRA’s policy of cooperation with Nazi germany.
I'm inclined to believe that a slogan was elevated to a point of principle..
Speech by Seán Russell in October 1939....

“England's difficulty - Ireland's opportunity" has ever been the watchword of the Gael.. Now is the time for Irishmen to take up arms and strike a blow for the Ulster people.
The head of both the English and German Intelligence Services during the war dismissed the view that Russell was a German sympathizer and a collaborator. Their evidence was good enough to convict the Nazi leadership, so it has to be considered when weighing up Russell's credentials as a Nazi collaborator..
The character of Seán Russell was vindicated at the Nuremberg Trials by the head of the English Secret Intelligence Services, and the head of the German Secret Intelligence Services, whose evidence was the primary source of material which led directly to the execution of dozens of Nazi leaders, when both of them testified to the fact that Russell was an Irish Republican, and not a Nazi sympathizer.
Seán Russell's wartime dealings with Nazi Germany

“Erwin Lahousen, the first and most important witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials in 1945. Lahousen had been head of the second bureau of the German Intelligence Service from 1939 to 1943. An Austrian clerico-fascist by conviction, Lahousen loathed Nazism and had been the key figure in an aborted pre-war plot to assassinate Hitler. By common consent, it was Lahousen's evidence at Nuremberg that ensured that Hitler's foreign minister Ribbentrop would be sentenced to death.

“Under the heading of "No Nazi", Lahousen's character reference on behalf of Russell was published as follows by The Irish Times on June 6th, 1958:

"The Irishman was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema. To the Austrian Catholic Lahousen, whom he found much more congenial, Russell poured out his private views of the Nazis, their attempts to convert him. . .Lahousen was sympathetic and took a strong and personal liking to the curious Irishman. . .He admired his integrity and honesty.”

“Lahousen said: “Russell was the only one of the IRA with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school.” After what Lahousen described as “one of Russell's fiery denunciations of the Nazi attempts to indoctrinate him”, the IRA leader further proclaimed: “I am not a Nazi. I'm not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemies of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings to the help.” - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sean-russell-s-wartime-dealings-with-nazi-germany-1.375398

Seán Russell believed that a Nazi victory would bring about a United Ireland. Anyone who thinks that a Nazi victory was price worth paying is a deluded fool. Seán Russell was a Nazi collaborator. Breen was a Nazi sympathiser.
IRA leader Seán Russell and the story of Dublin's most controversial statue

However, as Dublin cultural blog Come Here To Me! points out, Russell’s dealings in Germany and his death came before the Wansee Conference which proposed the Nazi “Final Solution”.

Dublin historian Brian Hanley has written extensively about Russell and describes him first and foremost as “a militarist” who cared more about fighting the British in Ireland than European politics.

“He was a militarist in a lot of ways and that’s not pejorative necessarily,” Hanley argues.

He wasn’t that interested in political debate. As far as he was concerned the IRA was there to drive the British out of Ireland. In the 1930s the IRA would have seen the Free State as a puppet.

Hanley says that in his view Russell cannot be viewed as a Nazi collaborator as he did little to aid their cause but sought to take their help. He also previously sought to take help from the Soviet Union.

“Russell wanted the Germans to help the IRA and in real terms he died hoping to have some cooperation with them. But it’s not in any way comparable to collaborators in Europe who had direct involvement in atrocities,” Hanley says.

“In the 1920s the IRA were looking for support from Communist Russia and he was happy with that, give us guns and give us money and in the 1940s he was happy to look to Nazi Germany for support and I don’t think he cared that much. Now that might be just as bad, if you don’t care at all. But I don’t think he had any truck with Nazi ideology.” - https://www.thejournal.ie/sean-russell-statue-3549072-Aug2017/

Hairbrained scheme that it may have been, Plan Kathleen, as you’ve stated, wasn’t Russell’s hairbrained scheme. The man was no more a Nazi collaborator than he was a Bolshevik conspirator. He also sought aid from the US. There is nothing complex or complicated about Russell or Physical Force Republicanism during that era. Russell was in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday, and the events of that day above and beyond anything else, may explain all of his actions in future years:

“The Auxiliaries and the military were heading for Croke Park. Close the gates now, Russell said. Stop any more people from entering. ‘Imagine if the machine guns open fire,’ he said. ‘What an appalling thing.”
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Seán Russell's wartime dealings with Nazi Germany

“Erwin Lahousen, the first and most important witness for the prosecution at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials in 1945. Lahousen had been head of the second bureau of the German Intelligence Service from 1939 to 1943. An Austrian clerico-fascist by conviction, Lahousen loathed Nazism and had been the key figure in an aborted pre-war plot to assassinate Hitler. By common consent, it was Lahousen's evidence at Nuremberg that ensured that Hitler's foreign minister Ribbentrop would be sentenced to death.

“Under the heading of "No Nazi", Lahousen's character reference on behalf of Russell was published as follows by The Irish Times on June 6th, 1958:

"The Irishman was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema. To the Austrian Catholic Lahousen, whom he found much more congenial, Russell poured out his private views of the Nazis, their attempts to convert him. . .Lahousen was sympathetic and took a strong and personal liking to the curious Irishman. . .He admired his integrity and honesty.”

“Lahousen said: “Russell was the only one of the IRA with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school.” After what Lahousen described as “one of Russell's fiery denunciations of the Nazi attempts to indoctrinate him”, the IRA leader further proclaimed: “I am not a Nazi. I'm not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemies of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings to the help.” - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/sean-russell-s-wartime-dealings-with-nazi-germany-1.375398



IRA leader Seán Russell and the story of Dublin's most controversial statue

However, as Dublin cultural blog Come Here To Me! points out, Russell’s dealings in Germany and his death came before the Wansee Conference which proposed the Nazi “Final Solution”.

Dublin historian Brian Hanley has written extensively about Russell and describes him first and foremost as “a militarist” who cared more about fighting the British in Ireland than European politics.

“He was a militarist in a lot of ways and that’s not pejorative necessarily,” Hanley argues.

He wasn’t that interested in political debate. As far as he was concerned the IRA was there to drive the British out of Ireland. In the 1930s the IRA would have seen the Free State as a puppet.

Hanley says that in his view Russell cannot be viewed as a Nazi collaborator as he did little to aid their cause but sought to take their help. He also previously sought to take help from the Soviet Union.

“Russell wanted the Germans to help the IRA and in real terms he died hoping to have some cooperation with them. But it’s not in any way comparable to collaborators in Europe who had direct involvement in atrocities,” Hanley says.

“In the 1920s the IRA were looking for support from Communist Russia and he was happy with that, give us guns and give us money and in the 1940s he was happy to look to Nazi Germany for support and I don’t think he cared that much. Now that might be just as bad, if you don’t care at all. But I don’t think he had any truck with Nazi ideology.” - https://www.thejournal.ie/sean-russell-statue-3549072-Aug2017/

Hairbrained scheme that it may have been, Plan Kathleen, as you’ve stated, wasn’t Russell’s hairbrained scheme. The man was no more a Nazi collaborator than he was a Bolshevik conspirator. He also sought aid from the US. There is nothing complex or complicated about Russell or Physical Force Republicanism during that era. Russell was in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday, and the events of that day above and beyond anything else, may explain all of his actions in future years:

“The Auxiliaries and the military were heading for Croke Park. Close the gates now, Russell said. Stop any more people from entering. ‘Imagine if the machine guns open fire,’ he said. ‘What an appalling thing.”
I never claimed Russell was a Nazi. I said he collaborated with the Nazis. Of course he was not as bad as other collaborators who directly assisted the Germans in atrocities but he received material support from them and worked to enhance cooperation between the IRA and Germany. Furthermore, as a senior member of the IRA he was party to Plan Kathleen to bring german forces into Ireland which was accepted IRA policy at that time. That was plain collaboration.
 

Estragon

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British restrictions on Jewish emigration to Palestine were due to its competing obligations to the majority Arab population. The last intention was to hand over control to an independent mixed Jewish Palestinian state. At the time it was a reasonable and responsible limitation.

Of course Britain fought against Germany for its own interests. It was in the interest of all democracies to see Nazi germany defeated. “One eyed nationalists” like Russell, Breen were blind to that broader common interests of fellow democrats, be they Irish, British, French etc.

I focus on Breen and Russell because they were not a fringe element within republicans of that period. The IRA were engaged in joint enterprise with Nazi germany against Britain and therefore against the national interests of all democracies.
Wrong on two counts. On becoming foreign secretary Ernest Bevan locked step with the establishment and determined that Britain would sustain the mandate on account of providing security for Suez and the oil terminal at Haifa. Britain had no interest in the area beyond these two basic issues. Keeping the Jews out of Palestine was nothing to do with sympathy for the Arabs and everything to do with keeping a strategic zone docile. In as much as they gave a damn, Britain's desire was that the Jews live among their murderers or emigrate to the States. Given that they played such a central role in liberating places like Belsen, it is quite striking that they were so coolly calculating about Jewish post-war desires

Russell and Breen were patently fringe elements. Living on the Donegal corridor, it is blatantly obvious where the sympathies of the average Irish person lay. No one had any great love for Britain, but they didn't want the godless Nazis to run Europe, any more than they wanted godless Communists to run Europe. Pretending that people like Breen and Russell were representative of even a strong undercurrent of Irish thought is just silly.
 

redneck

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Daniel O Connell killed a man in a duel- hardly the behaviour of a peace loving citizen. But he was challenged and responded. So how does this fact of killing in a duel make him a role model?
 

Talk Back

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I never claimed Russell was a Nazi. I said he collaborated with the Nazis. Of course he was not as bad as other collaborators who directly assisted the Germans in atrocities but he received material support from them and worked to enhance cooperation between the IRA and Germany. Furthermore, as a senior member of the IRA he was party to Plan Kathleen to bring german forces into Ireland which was accepted IRA policy at that time. That was plain collaboration.
Just so you know - the majority of Irish people wanted the Germans to beat the sh1t out of England - particularly in the first years of the war.

The IRA were at one with the people.

It is far worse that native traitors collaborated with their own country's historical and hereditary enemy, England - England was then and is now the only foreign country in occupation of Irish land.
 

cricket

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Just so you know - the majority of Irish people wanted the Germans to beat the sh1t out of England - particularly in the first years of the war.

The IRA were at one with the people.

It is far worse that native traitors collaborated with their own country's historical and hereditary enemy, England - England was then and is now the only foreign country in occupation of Irish land.
Link ? or is it something your granny told you ?
 
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