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Paul Gogarty featured on tonight's HIGNFY - video given to BBC by Oireachtas?


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davidcochrane
Clip not online that I can see just yet, but the clip of Paul Gogarty was in the first few minutes of the show. About 7 mins methinks....

One point I'd make, is at the start of the clip of Gogarty on HIGNFY the follow appears in the top left corner.

© Houses of the Oireachtas
Parliamentary Broadcasting Unit 2009
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJbvS841Pps"]YouTube- HIGNFY S38E09 Part 1/3[/ame]

So, it would appear that the clip isn't from Youtube, but actually issued by the Broadcasting Unit to the BBC.

But aren't there rules about Irish shows using Oireachtas clips for satirical purposes? Why would they give it to a UK based satirical show when the laws preclude them from doing so here?
 
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Panopticon

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Yep Dave. It's not just "satirical purposes" that are restricted; it's quite specific:

"... that recordings or extracts of the proceedings shall not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire, party political broadcasts or in any form of advertising or publicity, other than in the form of news and current affairs programme trailers...".

So no matter the argument about the purpose of the clip, it's clear that HIGNFY could not have broadcast the clip if it had been subject to Irish law.

The UK has a similar rule for its parliamentary footage.
 
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Yeah, I thought this too.

So if this was just a Youtube clip - it couldn't be used on an Irish show - but could be elsewhere.

However, as the clip has a copyright notice, it means that the BBC sought to obtain the clip and/or (at the very least) obtain official permission to use it - which, by the copyright notice, they got.

Thus the Oireachtas Broadcasting Unit has broken it's own law (rules).
 

TommyO'Brien

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Yep Dave. It's not just "satirical purposes" that are restricted; it's quite specific:

"... that recordings or extracts of the proceedings shall not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire, party political broadcasts or in any form of advertising or publicity, other than in the form of news and current affairs programme trailers...".

So no matter the argument about the purpose of the clip, it's clear that HIGNFY could not have broadcast the clip if it had been subject to Irish law.

The UK has a similar rule for its parliamentary footage.
Frankly the rule is unenforceable. Broadcasters in Ireland and Britain get the film of what happens in the Dáil as it happens. So no doubt the BBC already had it. RTÉ certainly had. TV3 apparently forgot to 'take' it and had to ring up asking for a copy. Local radio stations, if they forgot to take it, ring up the broadcasting unit and ask for a copy. In practice it is next to impossible to enforce. So you ring up the BBC to say "now lads, that thing you have a copy of, would you mind not using it in programmes of light entertainment, political satire, party political broadcasts or in any form of advertising or publicity?" When the rules were written there was a chance of enforcing it, and a clear distinction between types of programmes. Modern technology, the internet and the changing shape of broadcasting makes it next to impossible to enforce those sorts of distinctions anymore. Serious programmes do satire. Satirical programmes do serious issues, etc. The Frontline is a current affairs programme that includes satire (well, attempts at it). So is it satirical or current affairs?

At this stage if the BU tried to enforce the rules they would need to have their legal department working on it full-time to deal with all the uses clips are put to. They would have youtube and others and their direct dials to tell them almost hourly to take down the latest clips. And all the political parties use clips of Dáil debates on their websites, etc. How are you going to stop them?

It is simply a case of a law that is now unworkable and which is more honoured in its breach than its observance. It is about as unworkable as the law which was only recently repealed which required "motor vehicles" to go no faster than 5 mph and for the law that still exists on the payments of some salaries in guineas. (Or the rules about being required to wear a sword when crossing the quadrangle in TCD!)

About all the BU could do is to ring up the BBC and say "Ah Jaysus, lads, will yis stop using clips of the Dáil on HIGHFY?" (When told "No", as all broadcasters would say, about all the BU could say is "ok" and leave it at that!)
 

stewiegriffin

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Yes , the Dail is a joke ! We must protect the integrity of it ! Who do we sue ? Will we get more than Albert Reynolds ?
 

YoungLiberal

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Frankly the rule is unenforceable. Broadcasters in Ireland and Britain get the film of what happens in the Dáil as it happens. So no doubt the BBC already had it. RTÉ certainly had. TV3 apparently forgot to 'take' it and had to ring up asking for a copy. Local radio stations, if they forgot to take it, ring up the broadcasting unit and ask for a copy. In practice it is next to impossible to enforce. So you ring up the BBC to say "now lads, that thing you have a copy of, would you mind not using it in programmes of light entertainment, political satire, party political broadcasts or in any form of advertising or publicity?" When the rules were written there was a chance of enforcing it, and a clear distinction between types of programmes. Modern technology, the internet and the changing shape of broadcasting makes it next to impossible to enforce those sorts of distinctions anymore. Serious programmes do satire. Satirical programmes do serious issues, etc. The Frontline is a current affairs programme that includes satire (well, attempts at it). So is it satirical or current affairs?

At this stage if the BU tried to enforce the rules they would need to have their legal department working on it full-time to deal with all the uses clips are put to. They would have youtube and others and their direct dials to tell them almost hourly to take down the latest clips. And all the political parties use clips of Dáil debates on their websites, etc. How are you going to stop them?

It is simply a case of a law that is now unworkable and which is more honoured in its breach than its observance. It is about as unworkable as the law which was only recently repealed which required "motor vehicles" to go no faster than 5 mph and for the law that still exists on the payments of some salaries in guineas. (Or the rules about being required to wear a sword when crossing the quadrangle in TCD!)

About all the BU could do is to ring up the BBC and say "Ah Jaysus, lads, will yis stop using clips of the Dáil on HIGHFY?" (When told "No", as all broadcasters would say, about all the BU could say is "ok" and leave it at that!)
It irks me to hear about these 'rules'. Could you point me to where they are stated. They are certainly not in the charter.
 

TommyO'Brien

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Yeah, I thought this too.

So if this was just a Youtube clip - it couldn't be used on an Irish show - but could be elsewhere.

However, as the clip has a copyright notice, it means that the BBC sought to obtain the clip and/or (at the very least) obtain official permission to use it - which, by the copyright notice, they got.

Thus the Oireachtas Broadcasting Unit has broken it's own law (rules).
No. It simply means the BBC recorded it when it came in on the wires, like other broadcasters. They all get it live. Or they could have gone back to the BU and asked for a broadcast quality version as the version on youtube wasn't of broadcast quality. It is a law which, however sensible it may be in theory (and there was a good reason for it - to stop dishonest editing of Dáil debates as did happen in some countries that didn't have the rule) in practice, with modern technology it is unenforceable. The rule was created at a time when broadcasters weren't receiving live actuality from parliaments around the world and would have to ask for individual clips for use of the parliament.
 

stewiegriffin

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Is this thread about censoring the BBC ? Im confused . Or drunk perhaps . But certainly confused .
 

TommyO'Brien

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It irks me to hear about these 'rules'. Could you point me to where they are stated. They are certainly not in the charter.
They are in a set of rules adopted by the college in the seventeenth century and changed in the eighteenth century. Like so many rules they have never been repealed, just been forgotten about, but history students in colleges have great fun digging them up.

BTW one still can be fined a farthing if making "lewd comments" in St Stephen's Green". And public masturbation still has a sentence of having one's penis whipped, according to an old Irish law.

And Yale still has a rule (unenforced) about women not being allowed to wear trousers! One of the Oxford colleges has a rule about the type of buckle "gentlemen" must have on their shoes, and also details as to the rules the "domestic servants" of gentlemen must confirm to, including weekly church attendance. :p
 

Decadance

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Yep Dave. It's not just "satirical purposes" that are restricted; it's quite specific:

"... that recordings or extracts of the proceedings shall not be used in programmes of light entertainment, political satire, party political broadcasts or in any form of advertising or publicity, other than in the form of news and current affairs programme trailers...".

So no matter the argument about the purpose of the clip, it's clear that HIGNFY could not have broadcast the clip if it had been subject to Irish law.

The UK has a similar rule for its parliamentary footage.
What you are quoting is a parliamentary rule - BBC would have live feed with Oireachtas permission to take for purposes of short extracts of 'newsworthy' events for rebroadcast. This would be a loophole on rebroadcasting and not infringing copyright.

It is likely that BBC if challengned on using in satirical show would claim that they took insubstantial amount of footage, kept it below 30 seconds and that its inclusion was incidental to the HIGNFY show when taken in totality.
 

slx

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Well, since it was an RTE News item it could be picked up through the EBU (Eurovision) network by BBC or any other member of the EBU

Anyway, what's the big deal?

The Oireachtas broadcasts its meetings, Gogarty made a total idiot of himself and his party and the missing TDs showed their usual contempt for the Dail by not bothering their arses actually turning-up for a debate.

Of course fun should be poked at them, and lots of it!
 
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brughahaha

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My understanding is the same as Decadence, anything "newsworthy" and copyright is not applied under "free and fair usage"....

BTW it was the first time I saw it and really was hilarious..........
 
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Well, since it was an RTE News item it could be picked up through the EBU (Eurovision) network by BBC or any other member of the EBU

Anyway, what's the big deal?

The Oireachtas broadcasts its meetings, Gogarty made a total idiot of himself and his party and the missing TDs showed their usual contempt for the Dail by not bothering their arses actually turning-up for a debate.

Of course fun should be poked at them, and lots of it!
I point, is how come foreign telly can do this and Irish telly is blocked?

That's my point - there's a law prevent clips being used in Irish shows (which is wrong).
 

brughahaha

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I point, is how come foreign telly can do this and Irish telly is blocked?

That's my point - there's a law prevent clips being used in Irish shows (which is wrong).
I would be very interested to hear a legal opinion on this, The footage might be copyrighted but I dont believe that copyright could excede a publics right to know (freedom of information) or the internationally established rights to free and fair usage when something is currently newsworthy

I would imagine it is possibly similar to the effect of section 32, more observed in practice and by protocol than actually established by law
 

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