Pay More Income Tax To Have More Disposable Income ... Would You Rather?

Aquilius

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I recently got to thinking of how unjust certain taxes are (in my opinion), so I set about brainstorming a few ideas and came to the fairly rapid conclusion that a lot of taxes directly whether it be intentional or bad policy making - impact heavily on the lower classes.

For example, VAT - "my favourite" it matters not whether if you've got €100 in your bank account or €1,000,000 you'll pay the exact same rate of VAT on any items you purchase. I'm of the belief it should be abolished! Yes abolished!! and in its entirety, no messing about... lets sell products for what they're actually worth.

Now of course I understand that if you were to abolish VAT there'd be a sizeable chunk of revenue missing and a black hole would open up consuming various departments budgets, thus rendering the decision illogical.

Here's the bit that'll get you thinking if you'd be better or worse off...

... would you, if given the choice rather pay a fair rate of tax based on your income if it meant that certain other taxes would either be abolished (in the case of VAT) or reduced (in the case of DIRT).
 


YongHoi

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Sales Taxes are regressive (bad) taxes because they are commonly regarded as hitting the poorest hardest.
Shifting the sales taxes onto personal income taxes eventually results in 50%+ income tax rates. Any worker who is giving more than 50% of his wages up in tax is just a slave to the State. There’s no incentive to work.
Some of the most successful countries in the world have the lowest personal tax rates.
Income taxes of more than 15% are ultimately counterproductive.
Sales taxes of more than 10% likewise.

I’d agree with a higher Wealth Tax, starting on those with incomes over 1M p.a.
But those buggers can always just move out - or hire cleverer accountants ( and the politicians let them get away with it).
France is pretty good at taxing the wealthy. But they tax everybody else too much as well.
 

Aquilius

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One wouldn't be required to pay more than 50% in their income and nor should an employee do so. I agree that such a measure would result in a lack of incentive to work.

If everyone paid their fair share of income tax (eg. no exemptions) then you would be able to abolish and lower other taxes.

Another unjust tax is the Local Property Tax... not everyone has a bank balance to match the value of their home, it indirectly hits people who bought property in certain areas that now have transport links which raised the value of their home and also that of OAPs who may have bought their home 40-50+ years ago.

By reforming income tax with a complete overhaul of the system one could make society fairer and just with regards to middle and lower classes in which they are disproportionately hit in the pocket.
 
D

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See, I reckon that a combination of a sales tax or VAT plus property tax is probably the fairest form of taxation.

Eliminate sales tax/VAT on food, but have it across the board on all other goods.

Eliminate property tax on the homestead, but again, apply it fully on all other properties.

It becomes a case of the more you earn, the more you're likely to pay in tax. Very fair.

Yellow-pack Chinese flat screen - €100 - +€10 in tax.
Samsung 4K SmartTV - €1500 - +€150 in tax.

Home in D4 - €0 in property tax
Holiday gaf in Kerry - €10k per annum.
 

JCR

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See, I reckon that a combination of a sales tax or VAT plus property tax is probably the fairest form of taxation.

Eliminate sales tax/VAT on food, but have it across the board on all other goods.

Eliminate property tax on the homestead, but again, apply it fully on all other properties.

It becomes a case of the more you earn, the more you're likely to pay in tax. Very fair.

Yellow-pack Chinese flat screen - €100 - +€10 in tax.
Samsung 4K SmartTV - €1500 - +€150 in tax.

Home in D4 - €0 in property tax
Holiday gaf in Kerry - €10k per annum.
Holiday homes and second houses/landlord purchases taxes would solve a lot of the housing problem no doubt. You can make a decent second income in Dublin on airbnb for instance now from just one second property, even with a high enough mortgage on it. Thats a big problem if you ask me.

Overall though the tax issue is getting so complex due to the variety of ways money has become an international moveable feast, income streams can be put here there and everywhere so that increased income tax ultimately has to hit the PAYE easily taxable middle class hardest. They won't vote for it, its always been the democratic bottom line.

Moving easy and fast income and asset disposal out of property would be a very good step though I agree, especially in Ireland.
 

PC Principle

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Irish workers are getting tax raped and have been for decades, all to subsidize MNC’s and fund crazy socialism.

Anyone earning more than 38k per annum gets robbed 50%+ of every euro afterwards with USC included.

What a fûcking joke.

Slave nation.

Even before Trump’s tax reduction bill Americans never paid even close to that.

Lmfao.
 
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YongHoi

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If everyone paid their fair share of income tax (eg. no exemptions) then you would be able to abolish and lower other taxes.
Sounds good in theory - but in reality, at the next election, some party would promise loads of freebies, then slap the taxes back on to pay for it after they won.
That’s the thing about tax money, it’s like crack cocaine for politicians. Once hooked, they just need more and more...
 

mr_anderson

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Holiday homes and second houses/landlord purchases taxes would solve a lot of the housing problem no doubt. You can make a decent second income in Dublin on airbnb for instance now from just one second property, even with a high enough mortgage on it. Thats a big problem if you ask me.

It's not a problem.
It's a symptom.

The only problem is a lack of supply.
If the government took it's finger out of it's ass and reduced barriers to building, you'd see supply kick in and all these other 'problems' miraculously disappear.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Tax inheritance mercilessly.

One of the most inequitable situations in our society is "old money" - 20 somethings with no discernible talents or ethics with more money than sense getting a better start on the ladder than everyone else.

I would like to see all inheritance taxed as income.

Two societal benefits:

1 - fairer competition for those starting off on the career and housing ladder and
2- actually enable the real trickle down economy, if you can't take it with you and you can't tax effectively bequeath it, feckit you may as well spend it.
 

toughbutfair

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I like VAT because it is hard to dodge and it is an effort to get everyone to contribute, even a lazy knocker who has never worked is paying VAT when they buy a chocolate bar.
Inheritance tax should be increased as you e done nothing to earn that wealth.
The usc should be increased , decrease income tax .
 

Trainwreck

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I like VAT because it is hard to dodge and it is an effort to get everyone to contribute, even a lazy knocker who has never worked is paying VAT when they buy a chocolate bar.
Inheritance tax should be increased as you e done nothing to earn that wealth.
The usc should be increased , decrease income tax .
Well, I know a few "small businesses", so subsidised already by my taxes, whose owners do extremely well out of VAT.

An IT company director/owner that not only buys a tractor mower (WTF is an IT company doing with a lawnmower right? I was for his home) as a deductible business expense against revenues, but gets to net off the VAT bill on the company sales.

When he told me (bragging) I looked at him askance. I think it was about €3,000+VAT (a monster of a thing). If I had bought it, it would have cost me €7,563 of my salary. He paid €3,000.

The extra €4,563 I would need to earn to pay for the same thing would be taken from me in income tax, USC, National Insurance and VAT.


Don't get me started about Irish taxes.
 

HarshBuzz

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Low earners pay virtually no income tax in Ireland. The top 5% of earners pay more than 55% of all income taxes. So the reflexive 'tax the rich!' spiel doesn't really wash.

Which is an interesting contrast with supposedly more progressive countries like Sweden or Germany. Maybe we should have a less progressive income tax system? Then we'd have more room to do the things you mentiin above.
 

HarshBuzz

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Tax inheritance mercilessly.

One of the most inequitable situations in our society is "old money" - 20 somethings with no discernible talents or ethics with more money than sense getting a better start on the ladder than everyone else.

I would like to see all inheritance taxed as income.

Two societal benefits:

1 - fairer competition for those starting off on the career and housing ladder and
2- actually enable the real trickle down economy, if you can't take it with you and you can't tax effectively bequeath it, feckit you may as well spend it.
I'm in full agreement with this.

Set a reasonable limit on inheritance and treat everything over that as income, then tax accordingly.
 

Roberto Jordan

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Well, I know a few "small businesses", so subsidised already by my taxes, whose owners do extremely well out of VAT.

An IT company director/owner that not only buys a tractor mower (WTF is an IT company doing with a lawnmower right? I was for his home) as a deductible business expense against revenues, but gets to net off the VAT bill on the company sales.

When he told me (bragging) I looked at him askance. I think it was about €3,000+VAT (a monster of a thing). If I had bought it, it would have cost me €7,563 of my salary. He paid €3,000.

The extra €4,563 I would need to earn to pay for the same thing would be taken from me in income tax, USC, National Insurance and VAT.


Don't get me started about Irish taxes.
From the outside looking in that kind of gaming seems to be far far too common and seen as fair game still.
 

Roberto Jordan

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Tax inheritance mercilessly.

One of the most inequitable situations in our society is "old money" - 20 somethings with no discernible talents or ethics with more money than sense getting a better start on the ladder than everyone else.

I would like to see all inheritance taxed as income.

Two societal benefits:

1 - fairer competition for those starting off on the career and housing ladder and
2- actually enable the real trickle down economy, if you can't take it with you and you can't tax effectively bequeath it, feckit you may as well spend it.
That is a global issue.

Of course when I pointed this out on one of the other threads currently on the go the point got completely misinterpreted.

Inheritance would ideally be taxed at the same rate as earned income or higher. The push back against this is the practicality of implementation but I think thats a question of system design.
I dont understand, with my private sector mindset, if every additional revenue headcount brings it X times there salary why the government dont keep hiring until the marginal gains no longer offset costs....surely you want to maximise tax and surely its in the interest of the vast majority of people the vast bulk of whom's wealth is derived from earned income that is taxed at source.
 

Gin Soaked

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Tax inheritance mercilessly.

One of the most inequitable situations in our society is "old money" - 20 somethings with no discernible talents or ethics with more money than sense getting a better start on the ladder than everyone else.

I would like to see all inheritance taxed as income.

Two societal benefits:

1 - fairer competition for those starting off on the career and housing ladder and
2- actually enable the real trickle down economy, if you can't take it with you and you can't tax effectively bequeath it, feckit you may as well spend it.
The more I think of inheritance tax, the more I agree it should be capped and the more ways I think of to circumvent it.

Your OP is spot on.

Only negative issue is that in a lot of families, inheritance tax is used to set up the feckless child in a home so they don't burden the other siblings. Set up a trust so he/she cant drink it away. Might seem crass, but there is always one waster in a family.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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From the outside looking in that kind of gaming seems to be far far too common and seen as fair game still.
It's funny how we consider fraud as "gaming"...it's fraud, it's a crime and it's robbing the state of necessary funds.

But it's completely understandable given our state seems to try hard NOT to apply the same tax laws to big corporates.
 

PBP voter

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I recently got to thinking of how unjust certain taxes are (in my opinion), so I set about brainstorming a few ideas and came to the fairly rapid conclusion that a lot of taxes directly whether it be intentional or bad policy making - impact heavily on the lower classes.

For example, VAT - "my favourite" it matters not whether if you've got €100 in your bank account or €1,000,000 you'll pay the exact same rate of VAT on any items you purchase. I'm of the belief it should be abolished! Yes abolished!! and in its entirety, no messing about... lets sell products for what they're actually worth.

Now of course I understand that if you were to abolish VAT there'd be a sizeable chunk of revenue missing and a black hole would open up consuming various departments budgets, thus rendering the decision illogical.

Here's the bit that'll get you thinking if you'd be better or worse off...

... would you, if given the choice rather pay a fair rate of tax based on your income if it meant that certain other taxes would either be abolished (in the case of VAT) or reduced (in the case of DIRT).
It's an EU rule that we must have VAT.
 

HarshBuzz

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It's funny how we consider fraud as "gaming"...it's fraud, it's a crime and it's robbing the state of necessary funds.

But it's completely understandable given our state seems to try hard NOT to apply the same tax laws to big corporates.
If we taxed 'big corporates' the way we taxed indivisuals, they simply wouldn't be here. That might appear unjust and unfair but it's the reality.

Our entire economy is predicated on FDI. Screw that up and what have we got?
 

wexfordman

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If we taxed 'big corporates' the way we taxed indivisuals, they simply wouldn't be here. That might appear unjust and unfair but it's the reality.

Our entire economy is predicated on FDI. Screw that up and what have we got?
Never mind how we tax big corporations, consider this

1) Directors and CEO's of foreign multinational companies pay less income tax than those that are not. I recall there is a rule that they only pay tax on the portion of their income that they spend in the country.
2) remember the suggestions that a special introductory taxation rate would apply to immigrants (new and returning) comming back to the country to entive them home again.


Two very clear examples that the income tax regime in this country is daylight robbery, when they acknowldege it and either put in place little schemes or try to put in place schemes where others dont have to pay the same tax rates as the little people.
 


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