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Peter Sutherland vs Crotty, Coughlan and McKenna

  • Thread starter MrFunkyZombaloo
  • Start date

M

MrFunkyZombaloo

Yep, that's right, with European referenda coming to a ballot box near you (maybe twice if you're lucky) Peter Sutherland, former attorney general turned banker, has hit out at Irish judges regarding the Crotty, Coughlan and McKenna judgements in relation to referenda on the EU.

Sutherland criticises judges over decisions - Crime & Law News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Sat, Jun 01, 2013

Former attorney general Peter Sutherland has criticised Irish judges in relation to a range of decisions made on EU treaty changes and the manner in which referendums are held.
Sutherland goes on to say that the Crotty decision - of which he was most critical - has had "serious and damaging" consequences for Ireland. He describes McKenna as causing "distortions in the processes of democracy" and touches on the Coughlan decision by labelling it as an "unwarranted interference" and "quite wrong".

Crotty
Coughlan
McKenna

So, what say you. Do you agree with Suds; are these three decisions - which set limits on what a government can and cannot do - unwarranted interferences, serious and damaging and/or a distortion of democracy?
 


Malbekh

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As judges are the last bastion of neutrality in the country - me feinism aside - no. Sutherland is a very good barrister and was a pretty good AG, but he still gets paid to be partial, and he still being paid to be partial.
 

FrankSpeaks

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Peter is 100% right.
 

NewGoldDream

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From the article, he seems to be saying the decisions were extremely inconvenient, rather than wrong. I guess it may be hard to capture all the nuances of a legal argument in a newspaper article, cos that one doesn't point to one argument made against the reasoning in any case.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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From the article, he seems to be saying the decisions were extremely inconvenient, rather than wrong. I guess it may be hard to capture all the nuances of a legal argument in a newspaper article, cos that one doesn't point to one argument made against the reasoning in any case.
We would really need to see the full judgements to make a solid decisions if Suds is correct or not.
 

turdsl

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Thankfully the law of the land stands, ordinary peoiple accept it, The likes of Bruton,
Shatter, Sutherland, some of the biggest fat cats we have thinks when it does not suit their agenda it is wrong.Those so called intellects are officers of the court and should accept the result of referendums and Supreme Court decisions,like the rest of us,They have the cheek
to use democracy when it suits,The Supreme Court is our highest authority, perhaps it is too much to expect some people with inbred arrogance to fall in line with basic democracy like ordinary pleps,
 

NewGoldDream

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We would really need to see the full judgements to make a solid decisions if Suds is correct or not.
We can see the full judgements, they are in the law reports, had to pore through the Crotty one myself many years ago. What we do not know from the linked articke is what Sutherland states is specifically wrong with them, the application of the law, the reasoning, the conclusions, the logic etc. One trusts there was more to his speech than "I don't like 'em, they were wrong". Was he not effectively the advisor to the losing side in one of the decisions?
 

Nemesiscorporation

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We can see the full judgements, they are in the law reports, had to pore through the Crotty one myself many years ago. What we do not know from the linked articke is what Sutherland states is specifically wrong with them, the application of the law, the reasoning, the conclusions, the logic etc. One trusts there was more to his speech than "I don't like 'em, they were wrong". Was he not effectively the advisor to the losing side in one of the decisions?
Thats the problem.

We don't have all the information.
 

eyelight

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Sutherland is a Bilderberg shill.
 
M

MrFunkyZombaloo

Anyone who agrees with what little we know of Peter's musings on the subject might give us a brief outline as to what (if any) serious and damaging consequences have occurred as a consequence of Crotty, how McKenna distorts the democratic process and why Coughlan is an unwarranted interference.

3...2...1... Go!
 

Dame_Enda

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He is totally wrong. In a democracy the people are always right. It's not a distortion of democracy to consult the people directly. On the contrary it is a return to the ancient traditions of democracy as observed in Greece. Democracy is supposed to mean govt by the demos/people - not an elite who make promises to get elected, and then pretend to be acting on behalf of the people for 5 yrs all the while breaking those promises.

If that slows down European integration then tough. A lot more would be saying no had they been given a chance.
 

freewillie

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When Coughlan learns to pronounce "treaty" correctly he might have some credibility.
Its pronounced "treaty" not "three a tea"
 

hiding behind a poster

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He is totally wrong. In a democracy the people are always right. It's not a distortion of democracy to consult the people directly. On the contrary it is a return to the ancient traditions of democracy as observed in Greece. Democracy is supposed to mean govt by the demos/people - not an elite who make promises to get elected, and then pretend to be acting on behalf of the people for 5 yrs all the while breaking those promises.

If that slows down European integration then tough. A lot more would be saying no had they been given a chance.
You're definitely FutureTaoiseach.
 

hiding behind a poster

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When Coughlan learns to pronounce "treaty" correctly he might have some credibility.
Its pronounced "treaty" not "three a tea"
Coughlan has very little credibility as it is. In each treaty campaign, he claims that the treaty in question will lead to all his usual European bugbears - an EU Army, a federal superstate, etc etc, and that we must therefore reject this treaty and preserve the existing legal position. The only problem with this argument is that it implicitly accepts that when he made the exact same claims about each previous treaty at the time of its ratification, he was in fact wrong.

That's Coughlan in a nutshell - wrong about every EU Treaty for 40 years.
 
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milestogo

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Coughlan has very little credibility as it is. In each treaty campaign, he claims that the treaty in question will lead to all his usual European bugbears - an EU Army, a federal superstate, etc etc, and that we must therefore reject this treaty and preserve the existing legal position. The only problem with this argument is that it implicitly accepts that when he made the exact same claims about the previous treaty at the time of its ratification, he was in fact wrong.

That's Coughlan in a nutshell - wrong about every EU Treaty for 40 years.
Irish Troops in Mali love bombing the natives.Looks as if he was right.
British and Irish troops join forces for Mali - Irish News, World News & More | The Irish Times - Thu, Feb 14, 2013
 

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