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Plaid Cymru MP argues that independence for Wales not realistic now


factual

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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2012/12/31/independence-isn-t-a-realistic-option-for-wales-just-yet-says-adam-price-91466-32517692/#.UOG05jw0WiM.twitter

A senior PC MP has argued that Welsh independence is not on the agenda and calls for more powers to wales instead.

Expanding on an idea he first mooted in the Institute of Welsh Affairs’ Agenda journal, Mr Price said it was clear that independence was not a realistic option in the short term.
“As a nation we lack self-confidence because of the weakness of our economic position,” said Mr Price, who stressed that he was speaking for himself and not on behalf of Plaid Cymru. “Nations that lack self-confidence do not tend to back independence.
“So from the point of view of someone like myself, who believes Wales’ best chance of future prosperity lies in our having control of the necessary levers in an independent state, there’s the need to look at other possible constitutional arrangements as an interim measure.”

Mr Price, a leading adviser to Plaid leader Leanne Wood, said Wales was one of just five areas within the EU that saw themselves as nations but did not currently have their own state – the others being Catalonia, the Basque Country, Scotland and Flanders.
“Wales is the only one of them where independence isn’t realistically on the current agenda, for a combination of historical, economic and demographic reasons.
“Yet – and this is a very strong point – survey after survey has shown that most people in Wales want the big political decisions affecting them to be taken in Wales rather than at Westminster.
“Increasingly, too, there is an understanding across the political spectrum that the different crises affecting Wales – the drive to create more successful schools being pursued by [Education Minister] Leighton Andrews, the concerns about the Welsh language highlighted by the census figures and, underpinning everything, our economic performance – will only find solutions in Wales.”

In such a context, said Mr Price, it may be possible to work out a new constitutional relationship between Wales and the rest of the UK. Such a change could become inevitable whatever the result of the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence, the former MP argued.
The new arrangement suggested by Mr Price would be founded on the principle that sovereignty resided with the people of Wales, who could decide what powers would be delegated to a “confederal” British Parliament

Read more: Wales Online Independence isn't a realistic option for Wales just yet, says Adam Price - Politics News - Politics - News - WalesOnline
This MP is close to the leader. Does this represent a shift in PC thinking? Is it established in the UK that if people in Wales want independence then they should have it? The interesting thing here is that PC are adopting a different position from SNP on independence - perhaps learning from the problems facing SNP now.
 


True Republican

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less than 20% of welsh people want independence, at the moment in time, unfortunately welsh independence is not a realistic option.
 

Niall996

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Can't see Wales or Scotland for that matter ever truly seeking real independence. Britain is effectively a single Island nation. The Scots and the Welsh don't possess the distinct independent spirit required to forge a nation.
 

factual

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Can't see Wales or Scotland for that matter ever truly seeking real independence. Britain is effectively a single Island nation. The Scots and the Welsh don't possess the distinct independent spirit required to forge a nation.
Interesting post.

Perhaps the most sensible arrangement is that there are two states - Ireland covering all of Ireland , and a second state covering GB. That minimises distortionary land borders.
 

pippakin

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I'm not sure there is anything new about this Wales is an identifiable country within the UK and the vast majority of its people have always seemed to be happy with that.

Scotland appears more inclined to independence but I'm not sure that's much more than spin or that it will outlive Salmond. I remember it wasn't NI, the Scots or the Welsh who stopped the British 'Home Internationals' way back when. It was the English who couldn't be arsed to go to Scotland and who didn't want Scottish louts ripping up their Wembley turf, particularly when the media found the addresses of some of them and, guess what, it turned out however Scottish they were they lived in England!

In the end it will, as usual, be the English who decide what happens to the union and I won't be surprised if given the opportunity they dump it, which is why no Brit govt will give them the chance.
 

factual

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I'm not sure there is anything new about this Wales is an identifiable country within the UK and the vast majority of its people have always seemed to be happy with that.

Scotland appears more inclined to independence but I'm not sure that's much more than spin or that it will outlive Salmond. I remember it wasn't NI, the Scots or the Welsh who stopped the British 'Home Internationals' way back when. It was the English who couldn't be arsed to go to Scotland and who didn't want Scottish louts ripping up their Wembley turf, particularly when the media found the addresses of some of them and, guess what, it turned out however Scottish they were they lived in England!

In the end it will, as usual, be the English who decide what happens to the union and I won't be surprised if given the opportunity they dump it, which is why no Brit govt will give them the chance.
Perhaps there will be more devolution on some issues such as tax and media.

For example I believe that RTE should run the NI broadcasting and the BBC restrict itself to GB, with the licence fee monies from NI going to a northern RTE. Barry McElduff of SF has argued that the Assembly should be in charge of media not Westminster.
 

Ifor Bach

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Can't see Wales or Scotland for that matter ever truly seeking real independence. Britain is effectively a single Island nation. The Scots and the Welsh don't possess the distinct independent spirit required to forge a nation.
I get the feeling that the Scots do.

I also feel that the British state represents an unecessary layer of bureaucracy in a European state that nations such as Scotland could do without.

Personally, I'd be in favour of a federal British Isles, including a United Ireland, and ultimately a federation of English speaking nations. I believe the inhabitants of the British Isles have more in common with each other, than they do with those on the continent of Europe.
 

factual

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I get the feeling that the Scots do.

I also feel that the British state represents an unecessary layer of bureaucracy in a European state that nations such as Scotland could do without.

Personally, I'd be in favour of a federal British Isles, including a United Ireland, and ultimately a federation of English speaking nations. I believe the inhabitants of the British Isles have more in common with each other, than they do with those on the continent of Europe.
How would that sit with the principle of consent for NI?
 

Ifor Bach

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In the end it will, as usual, be the English who decide what happens to the union and I won't be surprised if given the opportunity they dump it, which is why no Brit govt will give them the chance.
That's a very good point. The U.K., as it is presently constituted, has no advantages for England, the richest of the 'home nations'. No-one has satisfactorily answered 'the West Lothian question', why Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, but English MPs have no power to vote on Scottish affairs.

I believe it was Russia, rather than one of the peripheral nations of the Soviet Union, that ultimately brought the Soviet Union crashing down.
 
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factual

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That's a very good point. The U.K., as it is presently constituted, has no advantages for England, the richest of the 'home nations'. No-one has satisfactorily answered 'the Midlothian question', why Scottish MPs can vote on English matters, but English MPs have no power to vote on Scottish affairs.

I believe it was Russia, rather than one of the peripheral nations of the Soviet Union, that ultimately brought the Soviet Union crashing down.
I don't know whether Scotland leaving would be good for England. Scotland is actually quite prosperous despite its image.

The West Lothian Question: a Scottish MP can't vote on Scottish matters either as it has been devolved to the Scottish Assembly.
 

factual

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We have a compromise. They would be part of a British state, with partition ended.

The biggest problem with this idea would be with RoI, I would imagine.
Not sure people north of the border would give up the right to self determination like that.
 

Ifor Bach

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I'm not sure there is anything new about this Wales is an identifiable country within the UK and the vast majority of its people have always seemed to be happy with that.
Imho, Scotland is easily recognisable as a distinct nation and cultural identity, but Wales far less so.

Anyone crossing the border from England to Wales does not get the impression of crossing an international boundary.

The North Welsh, (along the coast, almost as far as Bangor), speak with 'Scouse' accents, and their local newspaper is the Liverpool Daily Post.

The 'national' newspaper is the Western Mail, west of where?

Welsh identity is synonymous with the Welsh language, spoken as a first language by probably less than 10% of the population.

Wales has no natural resources of any note, a weak, state-dependant economy, and a very poor enterprise culture.

Independence, for the foreseeable future, would be a complete disaster.
 

Ifor Bach

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I don't know whether Scotland leaving would be good for England. Scotland is actually quite prosperous despite its image.
It probably wouldn't affect England a great deal. The only difference would be that Scottish MPs couldn't interfere in English affairs.

The West Lothian Question: a Scottish MP can't vote on Scottish matters either as it has been devolved to the Scottish Assembly.
Thank you for the correction.

It seems a bit ridiculous that an MP has no vote in some of the affairs in the nation from which he or she received their mandate, but has a say in the affairs of a nation where they did not.
 

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Not sure people north of the border would give up the right to self determination like that.
It's up to them. I'm just saying what I personally would like to see.

We hear a great deal of talk on how Unionists could be convinced to join a United Ireland. My suggestion would be that Ireland (as a whole) joined a some kind of federal British/Irish state.
 

factual

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It probably wouldn't affect England a great deal. The only difference would be that Scottish MPs couldn't interfere in English affairs.



Thank you for the correction.

It seems a bit ridiculous that an MP has no vote in some of the affairs in the nation from which he or she received their mandate, but has a say in the affairs of a nation where they did not.
It would be possible, but make life difficult, to have a Tory English Government and a UK Labour one. So on the whole the idea of devolution to England is not brought up.
 

Ifor Bach

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It would be possible, but make life difficult, to have a Tory English Government and a UK Labour one. So on the whole the idea of devolution to England is not brought up.
I don't really see why. Ideally, each nation would be autonomous in its internal affairs.
 

Dame_Enda

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less than 20% of welsh people want independence, at the moment in time, unfortunately welsh independence is not a realistic option.
It used to be 6% around the time of the 1990's devolution referendum though. Nonetheless I think our troubles have brought independence from the UK (unfairly) into disrepute because whereas the yes camps used to point to our success, the no side can now point to our failure. The reality of course is that our mess is an argument for independence as it is caused by having a supranational currency and interest rates determined based on the inflationary situation of another country rather than our own.
 

Cai

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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2012/12/31/independence-isn-t-a-realistic-option-for-wales-just-yet-says-adam-price-91466-32517692/#.UOG05jw0WiM.twitter

A senior PC MP has argued that Welsh independence is not on the agenda and calls for more powers to wales instead.



This MP is close to the leader. Does this represent a shift in PC thinking? Is it established in the UK that if people in Wales want independence then they should have it? The interesting thing here is that PC are adopting a different position from SNP on independence - perhaps learning from the problems facing SNP now.
Adam isn't an MP - he's an ex MP & he's very much in favour of independence - or at least he was when I talked to him the month before last.

His position is consistent with Plaid's position since LW became leader. There is a considerable gap between what Wales produces & what it recieves from the British exchequer (perhaps 15%) Until that gap has closed, independence won't be possible to sell because it would entail a cut in living standards in the short term. Thus independence will be more likely when the economy grows. Economic growth will be the focus of Plaid's efforts for the next few years - leading up to the next Assembly elections.
 

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