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Plantation of Ulster and Scottish famine victims ?


PO'Neill

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I'm starting this thread to discuss the real background of the Scottish peasants who fled from Scotland to Ireland in the 1600's to debunk the self delusional myths there are among unionists regarding the Ulster Palntation and the calibre of people in it. All sorts of supremacist theories have arisen to delude themselves from the Protestant work ethic ( obviously it didn’t occur to them that the Penal Laws and institutionalised discrimination might have something to do with it !!!!) to been the lost tribe of Israel followed by DUPer Nelson McCausland* etc, etc :) So to get the ball rolling, here is some useful information on the refugees who had to flee Scotland in the 1630's and 1690's - just like the victims of the Irish famine of 1847 had to go to Britain and America etc

" The majority of British tenants on the Plantation were Scottish and were attracted to Ireland for economic reasons. Many were living in poverty in their home areas as an expanding population, rising prices and increased unemployment led to serious economic problems in Scotland, particularly in the 1630s when the numbers of Scottish people coming to Ireland soared. Migration to Ireland offered the possibility of immediate escape from dire poverty and the prospect of future prosperity. " BBC - History - Wars and Conflicts - Plantation of Ulster - Engish and Scottish Planters - Economic Background of the Settlers

Not that was the last time Ireland had to accept the refugees of Britain, in particuliar Scotland, but again in the 1690's - " However a famine in Scotland, caused by crop failure in 1696-98, had a major impact in Ireland, causing Scottish Presbyterians to become an absolute majority in Ulster– where about 50,000 settled to escape hunger in their own country" War and Famine in Ireland, 1580-1700 | The Irish Story


* "Nelson McCausland, who believes that Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel " ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/26/northern-ireland-ulster-museum-creationism
 

ruserious

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As long as you have an IRA man as your avatar, I'm afraid you'll not find too many taking you seriously.
 

PO'Neill

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As long as you have an IRA man as your avatar, I'm afraid you'll not find too many taking you seriously.
But do you not think that when our unionist friends are playing the wannabe loyalist Rangers fans " Famine song " maybe they should take their own advice and " Why don't they go home ? "


And indeed won't Rangers fans know all about famines for the next few years or even decades when it comes to winning any trophy's
 

PO'Neill

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Not that the Scottish famines of the 1630's and 1690's were the last. Their also was the Highland Potato famine in the 1840's. In fairness to Glasgow city council they are erecting a monument to the victims of both the Scottish and Irish famines of the 1840's. Doubtful though if we'll get the same type of gesture from any of the main unionist party's.

" Plans are being drawn up for a memorial in Glasgow to those who perished in the potato famine which blighted Ireland and the Scottish Highlands. "

BBC News - Famine memorial moves approved by Glasgow City Council

BBC - Scotland's History - The Potato blight devastates Scottish crops
 

PO'Neill

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We planted Scotland in the 5th and 6th Centuries remember, they are named for us. There were probably no shortage of Protestant settlers who were actually returning to where their ancestors had come from...
Ah yes, the mysterious Cruthin tribe who were the orginal settlers in Ulster and like the Israelis were returning to their rightful lands in the 1600's from which they were exiled by the Irish !!!! :lol: A concocted load of bullsh!t if ever there was ........ :)
 

pragmaticapproach

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I'm starting this thread to discuss the real background of the Scottish peasants who fled from Scotland to Ireland in the 1600's to debunk the self delusional myths there are among unionists regarding the Ulster Palntation and the calibre of people in it. All sorts of supremacist theories have arisen to delude themselves from the Protestant work ethic ( obviously it didn’t occur to them that the Penal Laws and institutionalised discrimination might have something to do with it !!!!) to been the lost tribe of Israel followed by DUPer Nelson McCausland* etc, etc :) So to get the ball rolling, here is some useful information on the refugees who had to flee Scotland in the 1630's and 1690's - just like the victims of the Irish famine of 1847 had to go to Britain and America etc

" The majority of British tenants on the Plantation were Scottish and were attracted to Ireland for economic reasons. Many were living in poverty in their home areas as an expanding population, rising prices and increased unemployment led to serious economic problems in Scotland, particularly in the 1630s when the numbers of Scottish people coming to Ireland soared. Migration to Ireland offered the possibility of immediate escape from dire poverty and the prospect of future prosperity. " BBC - History - Wars and Conflicts - Plantation of Ulster - Engish and Scottish Planters - Economic Background of the Settlers

Not that was the last time Ireland had to accept the refugees of Britain, in particuliar Scotland, but again in the 1690's - " However a famine in Scotland, caused by crop failure in 1696-98, had a major impact in Ireland, causing Scottish Presbyterians to become an absolute majority in Ulster– where about 50,000 settled to escape hunger in their own country" War and Famine in Ireland, 1580-1700 | The Irish Story


* "Nelson McCausland, who believes that Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel " ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/26/northern-ireland-ulster-museum-creationism
The plantations were actually a failure, most protestant settlers emigrated gradually, not part of any planned settlement. In addition to this, many protestant settlers were Gaelic speaking highlanders.
 

JohnD66

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Ah yes, the mysterious Cruthin tribe who were the orginal settlers in Ulster and like the Israelis were returning to their rightful lands in the 1600's from which they were exiled by the Irish !!!! :lol: A concocted load of bullsh!t if ever there was ........ :)
No, medieval Gaelic kingdoms spanned both countries and saw lots of coming and going between Ireland and Scotland.

Dál Riata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And anyway, since many 'Ulster Scots' arrived here not as conquerors but impoverished immigrants wouldn't that actually give their ancestors more not less claim to belong here?

many protestant settlers were Gaelic speaking highlanders
I've hear this before, but is that true? The terms of the plantation were that settlers had to be both Protestant and English (or Scots whcih actually was rather different back then) speakers.
 

pragmaticapproach

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I've hear this before, but is that true? The terms of the plantation were that settlers had to be both Protestant and English (or Scots which actually was rather different back then) speakers.
Like I said, the plantations were actually a failure, most settlers in the likes of Antrim and Down did not arrive as part of any plantation, but organically as part of a natural, steady migration before and after the official plantations.
 

PO'Neill

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No, medieval Gaelic kingdoms spanned both countries and saw lots of coming and going between Ireland and Scotland.

Dál Riata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And anyway, since many 'Ulster Scots' arrived here not as conquerors but impoverished immigrants wouldn't that actually give their ancestors more not less claim to belong here?


I've hear this before, but is that true? The terms of the plantation were that settlers had to be both Protestant and English (or Scots whcih actually was rather different back then) speakers.
" 'Ulster Scots' arrived here not as conquerors but impoverished immigrants " Yes, tell that to our unionist friends, might knock some sectarianism out of them hopefully.
 

JohnD66

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Like I said, the plantations were actually a failure, most settlers in the likes of Antrim and Down did not arrive as part of any plantation, but organically as part of a natural, steady migration before and after the official plantations.
Fair enough, but when did they stop speaking Gaelic though?

" 'Ulster Scots' arrived here not as conquerors but impoverished immigrants " Yes, tell that to our unionist friends, might knock some sectarianism out of them hopefully.
Doubt it. I'd say if you're an extreme loyalist you'd love the idea of your ancestors fighting their way up from the bottom to carve out 'their own wee country' and still fighting the 'papists and lundys' today etc.

But no harm introducing them to their past all right.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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I'm starting this thread to discuss the real background of the Scottish peasants who fled from Scotland to Ireland in the 1600's to debunk the self delusional myths there are among unionists regarding the Ulster Palntation and the calibre of people in it. All sorts of supremacist theories have arisen to delude themselves from the Protestant work ethic ( obviously it didn’t occur to them that the Penal Laws and institutionalised discrimination might have something to do with it !!!!) to been the lost tribe of Israel followed by DUPer Nelson McCausland* etc, etc :) So to get the ball rolling, here is some useful information on the refugees who had to flee Scotland in the 1630's and 1690's - just like the victims of the Irish famine of 1847 had to go to Britain and America etc

" The majority of British tenants on the Plantation were Scottish and were attracted to Ireland for economic reasons. Many were living in poverty in their home areas as an expanding population, rising prices and increased unemployment led to serious economic problems in Scotland, particularly in the 1630s when the numbers of Scottish people coming to Ireland soared. Migration to Ireland offered the possibility of immediate escape from dire poverty and the prospect of future prosperity. " BBC - History - Wars and Conflicts - Plantation of Ulster - Engish and Scottish Planters - Economic Background of the Settlers

Not that was the last time Ireland had to accept the refugees of Britain, in particuliar Scotland, but again in the 1690's - " However a famine in Scotland, caused by crop failure in 1696-98, had a major impact in Ireland, causing Scottish Presbyterians to become an absolute majority in Ulster– where about 50,000 settled to escape hunger in their own country" War and Famine in Ireland, 1580-1700 | The Irish Story


* "Nelson McCausland, who believes that Ulster Protestants are one of the lost tribes of Israel " ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/26/northern-ireland-ulster-museum-creationism
Have you ever even been to Europe, let alone Ireland. The nonsense you spout is similar to the gibberish spouted by third generation Irish in New York who get there history form the local priest at GAA meetings or more accurately drinking sessions in the local pub where everyone ie Irish on St. Paddies night in the USA.

The Ulster settlers nearly all spoke Scots Gaelic. Quite a few were forced of there land in Scotland, with some being coerced and quite a few led by the nose with promises of making serious money and owning land which the crown had previously taken from them.

Ironically most of the Scottish settlers were descended from the Scotti and Norse settlers of Scotland, who were then replaced by Southern Scottish, English and aristocracy over vast tracks of land.

A suggestion. Buy a history book.
 

pragmaticapproach

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Fair enough, but when did they stop speaking Gaelic though?
I'd say it was a gradual process, much like the rest of the country and the non-english speaking parts of wales and scotland. There was a number of monoglot Gaelic speaking protestants in ulster at one stage.

I met many of the inhabitants, especially of the baronies of Glenarm, Dunluce and Kilconaway, who could not speak the English tongue, and asking them in Irish what religion they professed they answered they were Presbyterians … I had the curiosity to go to their meeting on the Sunday following, where I heard their minister preach to them in Irish at which (though I think he did not do it well,) they expressed great devotion … His audience, (as I understand) was composed of native Irish and Highlanders (Richardson 1711: 16)
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Ah yes, the mysterious Cruthin tribe who were the orginal settlers in Ulster and like the Israelis were returning to their rightful lands in the 1600's from which they were exiled by the Irish !!!! :lol: A concocted load of bullsh!t if ever there was ........ :)
Dál Riata was very real.

Your anti Irish and anti scottish bigotry is noted.
 

JohnD66

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I'd say it was a gradual process, much like the rest of the country and the non-english speaking parts of wales and scotland. There was a number of monoglot Gaelic speaking protestants in ulster at one stage.
Wow. Has anyone ever written about this, it's fascinating. Did this mean that at one point you had Ulster Gaelic speaking Catholics and Scots Gaelic speaking Protestants living side by side in Ulster separated only by their religion? Stranger things have happened I suppose.
 

pragmaticapproach

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Wow. Has anyone ever written about this, it's fascinating. Did this mean that at one point you had Ulster Gaelic speaking Catholics and Scots Gaelic speaking Protestants living side by side in Ulster separated only by their religion? Stranger things have happened I suppose.
Of course, its been written about by many historians, I assumed it was common knowledge. There is also evidence that many of ulster catholics converted.

Hidden Ulster: Protestants and the Irish Language: Padraig O Snodaigh: 9781873687352: Amazon.com: Books
 

PO'Neill

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Have you ever even been to Europe, let alone Ireland. The nonsense you spout is similar to the gibberish spouted by third generation Irish in New York who get there history form the local priest at GAA meetings or more accurately drinking sessions in the local pub where everyone ie Irish on St. Paddies night in the USA.
Yes I have toured it on a motorbike with a few mates a few years back. Also lived in Amsterdam and Cologne, also had a girlfriend from Prague and we went there a few times, probably my favourite city apart from dear auld Dublin. You probably learn your history from gobbing off at Rangers supporters drinking sessions or something. Sad :)

The Ulster settlers nearly all spoke Scots Gaelic. Quite a few were forced of there land in Scotland, with some being coerced and quite a few led by the nose with promises of making serious money and owning land which the crown had previously taken from them.
Where did I mention Scots Gaelic and say they didn't speak it ?

Ironically most of the Scottish settlers were descended from the Scotti and Norse settlers of Scotland, who were then replaced by Southern Scottish, English and aristocracy over vast tracks of land.

A suggestion. Buy a history book.
Yes like ourselves their a mix of people, Celtic, Viking, Norman etc
 
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