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Poland and the Jews


QuizMaster

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...which is a shame, considering Poland was a shining light of tolerance and forward thinking for centuries past. That is why there were so many Jewish people there in the first place. They were hounded out of the rest of Europe.

The same was true of Spain until the Christians took over.
 

Wolverine

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Has anyone read Jews in 20th Century Ireland. Bloody shameful stuff. De Valera and Lemass, not to mention people like Flanagan, should hang their heads in shame.
 

TheBear

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<Mod>Moved to History.</Mod>
 

Catalpa

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Wolverine said:
Has anyone read Jews in 20th Century Ireland. Bloody shameful stuff. De Valera and Lemass, not to mention people like Flanagan, should hang their heads in shame.
There were thousands of Jews living in the Irish State -most of them doing very well for themselves thank you!

Like were they persecuted or something? :roll:

As for Poland IIRC 98% of the people there are well Polish! :shock:

Real multicultural State they have there now isn't it? :p
 

Wolverine

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Like were they persecuted or something?
Not as badly as their counterparts in Europe, which is the whole point. The Irish State could have taken many more but choose to turn their backs on desperate people.
 

popper

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Wolverine said:
Has anyone read Jews in 20th Century Ireland. Bloody shameful stuff. De Valera and Lemass, not to mention people like Flanagan, should hang their heads in shame.

That is not the way Irish Jews feel about it.

And you cannot compare Lemass and De Valera who were in no way anti-semitic to that loon Flanagan although in fairness to him I don't think his fascism endured much belong the time he was elected.
 

Wolverine

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That is not the way Irish Jews feel about it.
Those who were here were thankful for the safety of a neutral state, that's for sure, but the state was extremely reluctant to allow any more jews into the country during WWII. Some individuals were allowed in but they could have saved many more from being killed. Certainly neutral Sweden saved many jews and didn't suffer from it.

Dev and Lemass weren't anti-semitic, they just weren't too bothered about what was happening in Europe.
 

Respvblica

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Wolverine said:
Like were they persecuted or something?
Not as badly as their counterparts in Europe, which is the whole point. The Irish State could have taken many more but choose to turn their backs on desperate people.
I read that only 12 jews were allowed in although my impression is that Dev and FF seemed to be be the favoured party for Jews in Ireland at the time. Maybe Fine Gael was perceived as a party exclusively for Gaelic Irish (despite having enlightened people like Dillon there were racists like Flanagan and O'Duffy). I havent read the Keogh book about the Jews in Ireland but it seems interesting.
 

popper

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Respvblica said:
Wolverine said:
Like were they persecuted or something?
Not as badly as their counterparts in Europe, which is the whole point. The Irish State could have taken many more but choose to turn their backs on desperate people.
I read that only 12 jews were allowed in although my impression is that Dev and FF seemed to be be the favoured party for Jews in Ireland at the time. Maybe Fine Gael was perceived as a party exclusively for Gaelic Irish (despite having enlightened people like Dillon there were racists like Flanagan and O'Duffy). I havent read the Keogh book about the Jews in Ireland but it seems interesting.

Irish Jews were wary of FG because of the Blueshirts and the anti-semitic stuff that prominent FGers came out with in the 1930s. There was a strong Jewish republican connection in Dublin and Cork, most of whom - like the Briscoes and Goldbergs - joined FF in 1926.

FG were certainly not viewed as "Gaelic Irish"! Indeed much of the anti-semitism that was around was from the Dublin bourgeois types who adopted FG as their party in the 1920s and 30s. Many Dublin bourgeois institutions banned Jews. I cannot think of any "Gaelic Irish" ones that did.
 

popper

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Just for you Hinkar:



Madam, - The forthcoming visit by the president of Poland highlights the huge input of Polish people to Irish society and the need for an integration policy that removes obstacles preventing emigrants from contributing to the best of their abilities.

Newcomers from all cultures have much to offer us in all areas - culture, work, sport, etc - but there are many obstacles and some are in danger of living in linguistic and social ghettos. There is a network of Polish newspapers, magazines, shops and pubs, even dedicated churches, but very little from the Irish side to promote understanding of Irish life, culture and history.

Polish history offers a model of integration and toleration. There were no religious wars in Poland, which opened its doors to Jews when they were persecuted elsewhere in Europe. For centuries many creeds and languages existed side by side in the multiracial commonwealth.

The immigration debate called for by Enda Kenny seems to ebb and flow. We need a more consistent approach to ensure the best result for Irish and newcomers and prevent the mistrust and stereotyping of the stranger that has occurred in neighbouring countries.

We hope the visit will focus our politicians on the need for policies that will be to the best advantage of all the peoples in Ireland. - Yours, etc,

PATRICK QUIGLEY, Chairman, Irish Polish Society, Fitzwilliam Place, Dublin 2.
 

Wolverine

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Does anyone know if there will be anything in the St. Patrick's day parade with an immigrant theme? The man after all was an immigrant to Ireland who made a big contribution.
 

hinkar

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Wolverine said:
Does anyone know if there will be anything in the St. Patrick's day parade with an immigrant theme? The man after all was an immigrant to Ireland who made a big contribution.
God, I hope not too much.

Two years ago, last time I saw the parade, (ironically) except for the Amerians, it was starting to look like a parade that could happen anywhere in the world... more immigrants dressed as St. Patrick and leprechauns I say!
 

hinkar

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popper said:
... Anyone familiar with the experience of Jews in Poland in the last century, under every sort of regime from democratic to military to Communist, will find that a bit odd.
I suppose you have a point ;) but, however, post 1795, the Poles only ruled themselves for a tiny fraction of their history...between 1918 - 1939 ... and a soviet puppet unitl 1989...
 

popper

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hinkar said:
popper said:
... Anyone familiar with the experience of Jews in Poland in the last century, under every sort of regime from democratic to military to Communist, will find that a bit odd.
I suppose you have a point ;) but, however, post 1795, the Poles only ruled themselves for a tiny fraction of their history...between 1918 - 1939 ... and a soviet puppet unitl 1989...

My point is that there was serious violence against Jews in Poland in the inter war years and again immediately after "liberation" in 1945. Not to mention significant collaboration with the Nazis in rounding up and murdering Jews under the occupation. Not surprised actually as many of the Poles I have met here are far from tolerant or easy to get on with.
 

hinkar

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popper said:
My point is that there was serious violence against Jews in Poland in the inter war years and again immediately after "liberation" in 1945. Not to mention significant collaboration with the Nazis in rounding up and murdering Jews under the occupation. Not surprised actually as many of the Poles I have met here are far from tolerant or easy to get on with.
But compared it its neighbours?
They were the most tolerant nation around during the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth...Tolerance towards Jews declined during 1795-1918 but that was under Russian rule...

As for WWII, the Nazis, not the Poles are to blame...They did lose 6 million people during that period (of which 3 million were Jews)...
 

Jozer

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Of all the countries occupied by the Nazis, Poland was the only one that did not provide a collaborationist puppet government.

British pilots were quite shocked by the open anti-semetism of some Poles.

As Roman Catholics, the Poles found Irish priests baffling in their inability to cope with anything other than unquestioning asquiesence from their congregations.
 

Twin Towers

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popper said:
Irish Jews were wary of FG because of the Blueshirts and the anti-semitic stuff that prominent FGers came out with in the 1930s. There was a strong Jewish republican connection in Dublin and Cork, most of whom - like the Briscoes and Goldbergs - joined FF in 1926.
Not to forget the Siev's popper!
 

Krzyhacz

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popper said:
hinkar said:
popper said:
... Anyone familiar with the experience of Jews in Poland in the last century, under every sort of regime from democratic to military to Communist, will find that a bit odd.
I suppose you have a point ;) but, however, post 1795, the Poles only ruled themselves for a tiny fraction of their history...between 1918 - 1939 ... and a soviet puppet unitl 1989...
My point is that there was serious violence against Jews in Poland in the inter war years and again immediately after "liberation" in 1945. Not to mention significant collaboration with the Nazis in rounding up and murdering Jews under the occupation. Not surprised actually as many of the Poles I have met here are far from tolerant or easy to get on with.
In 1918 Jews were around 10% of Polish population, I think it shows that for a long time Poland was a good place for them. Yes, there was a lot of anti-semitism in years 1918-1939, especially in 30's, but it was nothing special for Poland. In most parts of Europe anti-semitism was rising in this years. And in Poland it was never state-supported.
I totaly cant agree with You about nazi times. First of all, there was NO collaboration government in Poland, unlike France, Belgium, Norway and others. Yes, there where people who sold Jews to nazis, but there were also a lot of people risking their lives to help Jews hide, escape from Ghettos and so. Yad Vashem grants a title "Righteous Among the Nations" to people who risked their lives to help Jews in times of II WW. Among people that have been granted this title 1/4 are Polish, and no other country have so many people granted this. And remember that Polish people were taken to death camps, just like Jews were.

After II WW Poland wasn't fully independent. There was some violence against Jews, but in many occasions it was state-inspired, like pogrom in Kielce, when rumor was spread but communists that Jews have kidnapped a RC boy. Other big wave of anti-semitism after II WW was in 1968. But again it was heavilly supported by communists. when in March student revolted against government. So the communists have implemented large-scale propaganda, to turn peoples anger from them to Jews.

Today, there is some, but little anti-semitism, but most of young people are absolutely tolerant and open. One of the biggest festivals cultural events in Poland is Festival of Jewish culture, that is organized in Krakow every July. Also all commemorations of Holocaust, are widely attended by Polish people, especialy youths.
I'm sorry to hear that You have bad experience with Poles. I just could say that realy most of us (ye, I'm Polish too) are rather tolerant and open-minded.
 
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