#Polexit next .. or as others have said ( in article comments ) #krakout .. ???



raetsel

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Stick its nose out of Polish sovereign affairs.
The EU is actually the guarantor of democratic standards among member states. When a member decides to deny its people the democratic right to have a judiciary free from government interference it is breaching one of the fundamental rules of the EU. The EU has every right to stick its nose in. Poland can always decide to leave the EU. They wouldn't be missed.
 

Shpake

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My reaction to Poland and their current flounce is "Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!"

Poland's government is trying to impose a form of fascist control over its judiciary and cannot be allowed to get away with it. Kick them out of the club if they won't follow the rules.
If Poland leaves the EU it risks facing up to the return of hundreds of thousands of its emigrants, and the double whammy of the loss of considerable remittances home from them, and having to pay them unemployment benefits on their return home.
More likely those who have already got established in jobs/marriages within the EU will be allowed to remain in said country. It's more a case of Poles in poland not being granted residence work permits should they want to move into the EU.
 

Ireniall

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If Poland left, then there'd be far less migration to the west, and the Brits might want to stay after all
Of course that pre-supposes that the British had some sort of actual reason for voting for Brexit. I'm sure immigration was a serious irritant for Brexit voters but it was not sufficiently irritating that they would bother to actually find out for themselves how best to control it and which sort of immigration was the biggest problem. White Christian European people are much more likely to fit in with similar societies and are much more likely to go home when they have done their time and are unlikely to become a human flood. They made up a mere trickle for most of the UKs membership of the EU and their numbers were already due to decline when Brexit was voted for
 

Niall996

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I am not up with the latest on what is happening in Poland but I would like to know what the basic reasons for the pressure on the Polish judges are because in my view our own judges are not under nearly enough pressure and are one of the worst performing arms of the state here. When you see serious crimes being carried out by people with very large numbers of convictions then you know that the legal system is simply not bothered about its responsibility to society and needs to be removed from the untouchable status which has been uniquely conferred on them.

If the Poles have decided to tackle some similar deficiency in that country then I cannot find fault with them. Unfortunately it is one of the worst aspects of the EU that this kind of corrosive legal stasis is so central to EU law and is so vehemently supported by Europe. I would hope that even if the EU wins on this fight with Poland that there might be other avenues explored whereby the judiciary are at least helped to avoid the kind of pitfalls mentioned above. Then again if there is any element of the Polish government removing judges who perhaps do not support dubious government policy-that is a whole other ballgame.
It might force more countries to wake up to the lunacy of judicial independence. What an absurd notion.
 

flavirostris

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Italy will be next to leave...
That's more likely than Poland leaving I think. I think the Visegrad countries will continue to call Brussels bluff and get away with it because the EU cannot afford to suffer more damage by countries leaving.

Italy is in a really bad state economically and has become a migrant dumping ground like Greece and the EU will not help or allow Italy to defend its borders.
 

Shpake

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But let's face it. It's always been a problem of governing. The Central power wants all the barons to obey some one-size-fits-all. The barons want to solve their own problems in the way that suits them best. i.e. they want to act independently.
Some unelected career bureaucrat in Brussels deciding on some policy that was thought up on a whim and a prayer is bound to get some nation states uptight.
The central europeans are bearing the brunt of the cost of the Russian boycott due to the Ukraine crisis. The Med countries , Germany and Sweden are bearing the most of the burden for the refugee crisis -- and want to spread the load into Poland Hungary etc.
The feeling of entitlement of Brussels must get the Poles uptight. Much as it got the Brits uptight.
A lot of the refugee crisis is due to the France Italy and other states military assistance in toppling the north African dictators. Iraq-- well that's made in britain and the US
 

raetsel

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More likely those who have already got established in jobs/marriages within the EU will be allowed to remain in said country. It's more a case of Poles in poland not being granted residence work permits should they want to move into the EU.
Obviously no EU economy would want to self harm by kicking Polish workers out wholesale. But Poles abroad are at much greater risk of being made unemployed than native workers, so they could well find themselves deported in such circumstances.
 

Shpake

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Obviously no EU economy would want to self harm by kicking Polish workers out wholesale. But Poles abroad are at greater risk of being made unemployed than native workers, so they could well find themselves deported in such circumstances.
There you are onto a controversial point. If an eu citizen works say six months? 12? say two years?, four years?... and then goes unemployed... is he entitled to be on the scratcher for life? I don't think it has been fully ironed out.
 

BelCanto

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I am not up with the latest on what is happening in Poland but I would like to know what the basic reasons for the pressure on the Polish judges are because in my view our own judges are not under nearly enough pressure and are one of the worst performing arms of the state here. When you see serious crimes being carried out by people with very large numbers of convictions then you know that the legal system is simply not bothered about its responsibility to society and needs to be removed from the untouchable status which has been uniquely conferred on them.

If the Poles have decided to tackle some similar deficiency in that country then I cannot find fault with them. Unfortunately it is one of the worst aspects of the EU that this kind of corrosive legal stasis is so central to EU law and is so vehemently supported by Europe. I would hope that even if the EU wins on this fight with Poland that there might be other avenues explored whereby the judiciary are at least helped to avoid the kind of pitfalls mentioned above. Then again if there is any element of the Polish government removing judges who perhaps do not support dubious government policy-that is a whole other ballgame.


After the fall of the communism the judicial system in Poland has never been reviewed and adjusted to a more democratic format. Until now judges have been appointing new judges, there is no control system on any decisions. This resulted in years of corruption (the private wealth of judges seems in no way related to the salary received by a judge), unfair decisions (no witnesses or proof need to be presented to convict the little man). Also nepotism, as judges appointing judges means nothing else than appointing your son rather than appointing the best candidate. To add to it, judges enjoy immunity, there were case of shoplifting judges who couldn't be convicted because of their profession. It is a horrible system and if you don't belong to the establishment the court will decide against you.

PiS will introduce a model based on the current German/Spanish system.

The change is positively received in Poland. Only people protesting are family members of appointed judges, as this was obviously a great spot to be in and bribes can finance a fantastic lifestyle. The public is calling into TV shows to inform government officials about corruption cases in their region in their hope to install fair judges soon.
 

Ireniall

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Its a well known fact that Poland suffered for decades under totalitarianism why would they win their independence only to have it all eroded again by an expansionist bullying EU.
You cannot write anything that comes into your head and be taken serious when it turns out to be just completely ridiculous. In what way at all can the EU be compared to regimes which have become the historical bywords for brutish evil? I ask the question in order to try to help you because I often enjoy your posts. I do not ask the question in order to actually discuss this risible notion
 

The_SR

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After the fall of the communism the judicial system in Poland has never been reviewed and adjusted to a more democratic format. Until now judges have been appointing new judges, there is no control system on any decisions. This resulted in years of corruption (the private wealth of judges seems in no way related to the salary received by a judge), unfair decisions (no witnesses or proof need to be presented to convict the little man). Also nepotism, as judges appointing judges means nothing else than appointing your son rather than appointing the best candidate. To add to it, judges enjoy immunity, there were case of shoplifting judges who couldn't be convicted because of their profession. It is a horrible system and if you don't belong to the establishment the court will decide against you.

PiS will introduce a model based on the current German/Spanish system.

The change is positively received in Poland. Only people protesting are family members of appointed judges, as this was obviously a great spot to be in and bribes can finance a fantastic lifestyle. The public is calling into TV shows to inform government officials about corruption cases in their region in their hope to install fair judges soon.
How many judges are there as millions protested....
 

sic transit

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Ireniall

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After the fall of the communism the judicial system in Poland has never been reviewed and adjusted to a more democratic format. Until now judges have been appointing new judges, there is no control system on any decisions. This resulted in years of corruption (the private wealth of judges seems in no way related to the salary received by a judge), unfair decisions (no witnesses or proof need to be presented to convict the little man). Also nepotism, as judges appointing judges means nothing else than appointing your son rather than appointing the best candidate. To add to it, judges enjoy immunity, there were case of shoplifting judges who couldn't be convicted because of their profession. It is a horrible system and if you don't belong to the establishment the court will decide against you.

PiS will introduce a model based on the current German/Spanish system.

The change is positively received in Poland. Only people protesting are family members of appointed judges, as this was obviously a great spot to be in and bribes can finance a fantastic lifestyle. The public is calling into TV shows to inform government officials about corruption cases in their region in their hope to install fair judges soon.
If they are basing their new system on ones that are already operating in other EU countries -why are the EU reacting like this?
 

owedtojoy

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After the fall of the communism the judicial system in Poland has never been reviewed and adjusted to a more democratic format. Until now judges have been appointing new judges, there is no control system on any decisions. This resulted in years of corruption (the private wealth of judges seems in no way related to the salary received by a judge), unfair decisions (no witnesses or proof need to be presented to convict the little man). Also nepotism, as judges appointing judges means nothing else than appointing your son rather than appointing the best candidate. To add to it, judges enjoy immunity, there were case of shoplifting judges who couldn't be convicted because of their profession. It is a horrible system and if you don't belong to the establishment the court will decide against you.

PiS will introduce a model based on the current German/Spanish system.

The change is positively received in Poland. Only people protesting are family members of appointed judges, as this was obviously a great spot to be in and bribes can finance a fantastic lifestyle. The public is calling into TV shows to inform government officials about corruption cases in their region in their hope to install fair judges soon.
I have a young Polish colleague at work, and her presentation is somewhat different.

It is a generational issue - the younger generation are pro-EU, and very much like its cosmopolitanism and freedoms. Older people hanker for some lost era of stability and certainty that PiS is promising them.

If the need is to change the judicial system, then the democratic process is to achieve a national consensus across as many parties as possible, not just the dictation of a single party that may not even command a majority. There is no national consensus, just a power-grab.

I would not trust Polish TV shows since the government has largely taken control of the TV stations to broadcast propaganda, so do not expect a balanced presentation. You can be sure some of the "callers" are like the sockpuppets and Russian trolls we get here.
 

HarshBuzz

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Poland has already suffered under 2 different tyrannies they sure as hell dont want to make it a 3rd.
Putin is of course ready to enfold them in his loving embrace.....
 
D

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If they are basing their new system on ones that are already operating in other EU countries -why are the EU reacting like this?
Could be something to do with the PiS position on the political spectrum - left-wing on economic issues, otherwise conservative. And that does not fit well with the EU model.
 

Man or Mouse

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I am not up with the latest on what is happening in Poland but I would like to know what the basic reasons for the pressure on the Polish judges are because in my view our own judges are not under nearly enough pressure and are one of the worst performing arms of the state here. When you see serious crimes being carried out by people with very large numbers of convictions then you know that the legal system is simply not bothered about its responsibility to society and needs to be removed from the untouchable status which has been uniquely conferred on them.

If the Poles have decided to tackle some similar deficiency in that country then I cannot find fault with them. Unfortunately it is one of the worst aspects of the EU that this kind of corrosive legal stasis is so central to EU law and is so vehemently supported by Europe. I would hope that even if the EU wins on this fight with Poland that there might be other avenues explored whereby the judiciary are at least helped to avoid the kind of pitfalls mentioned above. Then again if there is any element of the Polish government removing judges who perhaps do not support dubious government policy-that is a whole other ballgame.
One thing to remember there is, that, our judges uphold the law. They don't make it. Our legislators are responsible for all those weaknesses you refer to. How do you get that moving? I suppose one way to start would be to somehow replace the tribal nature of elections, that decides how 80 percent of our electorate, SFFG, vote, with an issues driven one,. Good luck on that one.
 


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