Police violence in Catalonia

Barroso

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For the Spanish interior minister, Fernándo Grande Marlaska, it seems that the 800 dead in the Basque conflict count for nothing: he has claimed that the violence in Catalonia is much worse than it was in the Basque country.
Now, it's worth remembering that the Basque conflict was very similar to the conflict in the north of Ireland, with a great many deaths on both sides, car bombings, hundreds if not thousands of Basques (most of them young) being sent to prison - usually hundreds of kilometres away from home, political parties being illegalised, heavy censorship which closed a lot of newspapers and magazines.
Yet according to the Spanish interior minister, a few days of riots is worse than all of that.

Of course, seen from Madrid, it may well be worse, not for what has happened, not for any violence, but for what they are afraid of happening. They are terrified of losing control of Catalonia, which is the goose that lays the golden egg that pays for so much of what the Spanish government does. And they will do anything at all to keep Catalonia from leaving. Unfortunately, I expect the Spanish state to provoke Catalans as much as they can - just as they did in the Basque country - to justify coming down even more heavily than they already have. I wouldn't rule out deaths caused by the Spanish government, directly or more likely indirectly via some of the many ultra-rightwing groups in Spain.
 


Barroso

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1) there are huges differences between our fight for independence and Catalonia, the main one being the people of Catalonia voted to join the spanish state in a free and fair referendum, which included the law which dont allow individual areas have such referendums, it must be an all spain referendum to be legally valid

2) yes i am sure

3) I'v already stated i dont support police violence.
I'm curious about this "free and fair referendum" where the people of Catalonia voted to join the Spanish state.
As far as I know, Catalonia has formed part of a unitary Spanish state since the Wars ofthe Spanish Succession in the early 1700, when they supported the House of Austria. They were on the losing side in that war, and have been ruled from Madrid ever since, periods of some autonomy included.

If you are referring to the referendum on the Spanish constitution, this had nothing to do with whether Catalonia was to form part of the Spanish state or not; that option was not given.

In brief, then, the Catalan people, including the great many Spaniards living in Catalonia, have never voted to join the Spanish state.
They have however voted in large numbers to leave Spain, in a free and fair referendum - well, slightly less than free, as thousands of Spanish police were drafted in to stop the vote taking place Although they disrupted the vote, they did not succeed in stopping it.

So your point 1 is utter nonsense.
Point 2 I'll accept your word, and point 3, well your point 1 comments leave me wondering how true the comment is.
 

Barroso

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Oh, here's another interesting video on Twitter. It shows a group of police opening the shutter on a shop in Barcelona, and out come around a dozen masked men. They seem to get into a series of police vans that are parked outside the shop.
What's going on here?
Who are they?
Where have they been?
What did they get up to?
Whose orders were they following?

The use of these police/agents provateurs/whatever doesn't bode well for the future.
Indeed, I've seen several photos and videos of groups like this over the last fortnight. If you wanted to look for people carrying out violent activities I'd say this sort of individual would be a good place to start. Particularly when you see how heavy-handed the Spanish police are in front of cameras in the full light of day, it's not hard to imagine them turning more violent, and acting in such a way as to get demonstrators bad publicity, in the dark of night.
 

Barroso

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Lol what great numbers have voted to leave Spain?
Two million in an "illegal" referendum two years ago.
I'm surprised you had to ask: just two weeks ago, a group of politicians and other activists were sentenced to long prison sentences for holding the referendum.
There have also been other referendums over the last ten years, beginning with a local referendum in Arenys de Munt in 2009.
 

Pyewacket

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Oh, here's another interesting video on Twitter. It shows a group of police opening the shutter on a shop in Barcelona, and out come around a dozen masked men. They seem to get into a series of police vans that are parked outside the shop.
What's going on here?
Who are they?
Where have they been?
What did they get up to?
Whose orders were they following?

The use of these police/agents provateurs/whatever doesn't bode well for the future.
Indeed, I've seen several photos and videos of groups like this over the last fortnight. If you wanted to look for people carrying out violent activities I'd say this sort of individual would be a good place to start. Particularly when you see how heavy-handed the Spanish police are in front of cameras in the full light of day, it's not hard to imagine them turning more violent, and acting in such a way as to get demonstrators bad publicity, in the dark of night.
Ryanair has cheap flights to Barcelona, jump on one and tell us what you observed among the natives. :)
 

Barroso

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I'd like to share just one more video tonight - it shows the Catalan musician Pau Casals speaking at the UN many years ago when he was a refugee from Franco's Spain; and a young Catalan woman who escaped with her mother from Srebenica as a child and received refuge in Catalonia, becoming a Catalan in the process.
Both speak of peace, and of using peaceful means to attain their objectives.
It's in English, and just a few minutes long.

 

Itsalaugh

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Fart on with youtube. That will tell you want to think, paiso ;)
You seem very knowledgeable. Are Catelonians widely dispersed across Spain? Do Catalonians have a very distinct accent in Spanish, meaning in Madrid people immediately know where they're were reared? At the time of the Madrid train bombings an Irish boyfriend of a Basque girl claimed on the Joe Duffy show that she was receiving horrid abuse from many Spanish acquaintances in Dublin. Is the situation for Catelonians residing elswehere in Spain more tolerable?
 

Pyewacket

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You seem very knowledgeable. Are Catelonians widely dispersed across Spain? Do Catalonians have a very distinct accent in Spanish, meaning in Madrid people immediately know where they're were reared? At the time of the Madrid train bombings an Irish boyfriend of a Basque girl claimed on the Joe Duffy show that she was receiving horrid abuse from many Spanish acquaintances in Dublin. Is the situation for Catelonians residing elswehere in Spain more tolerable?
Go and do some reading of your own.
 

Barroso

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You seem very knowledgeable. Are Catelonians widely dispersed across Spain? Do Catalonians have a very distinct accent in Spanish, meaning in Madrid people immediately know where they're were reared? At the time of the Madrid train bombings an Irish boyfriend of a Basque girl claimed on the Joe Duffy show that she was receiving horrid abuse from many Spanish acquaintances in Dublin. Is the situation for Catelonians residing elswehere in Spain more tolerable?
Pukeitup doesn't do discussion. Don't expect reason from it, just vomit. It's probably a bot of some sort - over 3000 posts since March 24th this year.

To answer your query, yes, there are many regional accents in Spain, Castile, Basque (which includes parts of Navarre), Galician, Aragon (includes some parts of Navarre), Andalucia, Catalan (includes Valencia and the Balearic Isles), all immediately recognisable within Spain whether speaking Spanish or a regional language. As I already mentioned, a Catalan guy I met in Madrid said that a year there would turn any Catalan into a Catalan nationalist, for the sort of reasons you have mentioned.

Another anecdote: a friend of mine who studied Spanish in Barcelona university told me that after several months in the city, he went to Granada for a seminar in the university there, where a lecturer gave out to him for speaking Spanish with a Catalan accent. Talk about winning hearts and minds!
 

Barroso

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It looks like the Spanish goverment has decided to try and find out just what the Catalans are doing. They have decided to track every mobile phone they can - they have got agreement with the three main operators to give them all the data from the phones in each of the companies' network, bar the owners' names.
They are going to track each phone for 8 twenty-four hour periods.

At any time, this would be Big Brother gone mad. At the present time, it is absolutely incendiary.

It is just a couple of weeks since the Spanish state said that they were investigating a group called Tsunami Democratic, that uses various encrypted technologies to remain anonymous.
As a result, in Catalonia this will be seen as an attempt to find out who Tsunami Democratic is, where the people who use the app go, who they meet with and so on - in other words at attempt to discover networks of individuals who are or might be involved in the organisation. Logically people would expect this to be followed by further repression. The government (or to be specific, their central statistics office) claims that this has already been done in the Netherlands, but it is a very moot point as to whether it was comparable - or whether indeed they would consider doing it again since the GDPR came in.
In this case, it seems that the information will include the telephone number, but not the owner's name.
 

Barroso

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The latest from Spain: their tánaiste, one Carmen Calvo has apparently warned the Belgian that they had better extradite Puigdemont - or else.
514-kOrE-U471271656954SkF-992x558@LaVanguardia-Web.jpg

She wasn't specific about what she was threatening, but the threat was made.
Of course, Spain is in election mode, and all sorts of things will be said between now and voting day, but still, they have form.
One of Puigdemont's lawyers tweeted:
The Spanish government calls upon the Belgian government to put pressure on the Belgian judge to extradite. So much for judicial independence. El Gobierno avisa a Bélgica de que “no se entendería” que se denegase la entrega de Puigdemont
— Simon Bekaert (@Simonbekaert) October 29, 2019
 

Barroso

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The IT has a good article on the sentences, by a journalist in Madrid called Guy Hedgecoe.
It is based on an interview with Jordi Cuixart, one of the non-politicians imprisoned by Spain for his part in organising the independence referendum two years ago.
Many people outside of Catalonia think that the independence process is driven by the politicians: Cuixart reminds us that this is not the case - it is driven from below:
That violence has also highlighted divisions within the independence movement, particularly between its rank-and-file activists and the political parties representing them, two of which govern the Catalan region in coalition, Together for Catalonia (JxCat) and the Catalan Republican Left (ERC).
Cuixart suggests that these parties have been holding back the will of many Catalans.
 

Ardillaun

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While police violence cannot be justifed, the politicians were rightly jailed for trying to subvert the Spanish constitution they swore to uphold by holding an illegal referendum, (which they knew was illegal beforehand) and ilegally using public funds to do so
We seem to be going around in circles here. Shouldn't any reasonable state make provision in its laws for the holding of such referendums under certain circumstances? Saying they're illegal merely points to a serious flaw in the system.
 
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Dame_Enda

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The latest from Spain: their tánaiste, one Carmen Calvo has apparently warned the Belgian that they had better extradite Puigdemont - or else.
514-kOrE-U471271656954SkF-992x558@LaVanguardia-Web.jpg

She wasn't specific about what she was threatening, but the threat was made.
Of course, Spain is in election mode, and all sorts of things will be said between now and voting day, but still, they have form.
One of Puigdemont's lawyers tweeted:
The Flemish separatists are seen as sympathetic to Puigdemont and I think by law, every Belgian government has to be a coalition between the French and Flemish speakers.
 

Barroso

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The organisation Tsunami Democràtic has developed an app for private encrypted communication. It can be downloaded from GitHub, owned by Microsoft.
The Spanish government has ordered GitHub to remove the app. It appear that they are in good company: Russia and China have acted similarly in the past.
Of course, this is only valid for Spain; the rest of the world is able to access it. And from Spain, you can access it via proxies or vpn.

Of course the next step will be to make it illegal to have the app on your phone, and then start arresting people and imprisoning them for having the app. And I believe that those who run Spain are that way inclined.
 
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