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Dame_Enda

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The EU Commission has issued infringement proceedings against Poland for a new Polish law the EU says interferes with the independence of the judiciary.

Given that Poland and Hungary are both under EU scrutiny on rule of law issues and tend to back each other up in the EU Council, it seems unlikely that the necessary unanimity will be reached to get to the stage where Poland could lose its rights under the Treaties. This raises questions as to whether the Article 7 process needs to be beefed up in the next EU treaty.

 

rainmaker

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The EU Commission has issued infringement proceedings against Poland for a new Polish law the EU says interferes with the independence of the judiciary.

Given that Poland and Hungary are both under EU scrutiny on rule of law issues and tend to back each other up in the EU Council, it seems unlikely that the necessary unanimity will be reached to get to the stage where Poland could lose its rights under the Treaties. This raises questions as to whether the Article 7 process needs to be beefed up in the next EU treaty.

They knew the rules when they joined. They cannot pick and choose.

It seems these two states in particular want the economic benefits without any of the obligations - they really should be dealt with.
 

dunno

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Good for Poland and Hungary. Judges seem to think they are special guardians of whatever's hot in the Lodge. Judges hand down verdicts on crime. They should realise they don't stand above the elected representatives, they are not the guardian class of Plato.
 

rainmaker

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Good for Poland and Hungary. Judges seem to think they are special guardians of whatever's hot in the Lodge. Judges hand down verdicts on crime. They should realise they don't stand above the elected representatives, they are not the guardian class of Plato.
They knew the rules when they joined. If they don't like them they should do what the UK did and leave.

They can't say to the EU we want all the financial benefits of the club, but we're ignoring the rules.
 

Dame_Enda

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It's pretty clear that preventing judges referring cases to the ECJ is a violation of the treaties.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Good for Poland and Hungary. Judges seem to think they are special guardians of whatever's hot in the Lodge. Judges hand down verdicts on crime. They should realise they don't stand above the elected representatives, they are not the guardian class of Plato.
Fascinating. And totally irrelevant.
 

Buchaill Dana

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They knew the rules when they joined. They cannot pick and choose.

It seems these two states in particular want the economic benefits without any of the obligations - they really should be dealt with.
Thats the nub of it. They want the economic benefits of EU membership while regressing the political system in direct violation on EU membership.

Piss or get off the pot. If Poland and Hungary want to go back to a state controlled press and 'juris telefonica', good for them. But they will have the economy to match.
 

Ireniall

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Thats the nub of it. They want the economic benefits of EU membership while regressing the political system in direct violation on EU membership.

Piss or get off the pot. If Poland and Hungary want to go back to a state controlled press and 'juris telefonica', good for them. But they will have the economy to match.
It's not just the financial benefits either. Free movement has been very valuable to them and leaving the European Alliance would leave them open more to being messed with by Russia. The suspension of democracy in Hungary is a direct challenge to the core values of the EU and if they persist with this the EU will have to take steps to suspend and then expel them. If anything the Brexit thing has shown the need for the EU to be more robust. Get rid of these countries that don't really want to be inside the union and spend their time undermining it in one way or another.
 

owedtojoy

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Good for Poland and Hungary. Judges seem to think they are special guardians of whatever's hot in the Lodge. Judges hand down verdicts on crime. They should realise they don't stand above the elected representatives, they are not the guardian class of Plato.

Good for Hungary? the second largest recipient of EU money - some of it our money.

They should buck up to Democratic norms. FFS, Orban got himself indefinite rule by decree. He is out of all Democratic control, the media is run by his oligarchs and EU money lines his families' pockets.

If they cannot reform, they should be pushed out of the EU.
 

Dame_Enda

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Good for Hungary? the second largest recipient of EU money - some of it our money.

They should buck up to Democratic norms. FFS, Orban got himself indefinite rule by decree. He is out of all Democratic control, the media is run by his oligarchs and EU money lines his families' pockets.

If they cannot reform, they should be pushed out of the EU.
Merkel has failed to use her economic leverage to rein in Poland and Hungary.

I support Hungarys border fence. But not the suppression of the free press. Polands judicial reforms risk politicising the judiciary and undermining EU law. The ECJ recently ruled that part of the law introducing different retirement Ages for female judges from their male counterparts was unlawful, but also said they were leaving it to Poland to resolve. Poland is also using the cover of Covid 19 to further restrict abortion.
 

dunno

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Good for Hungary? the second largest recipient of EU money - some of it our money.

They should buck up to Democratic norms. FFS, Orban got himself indefinite rule by decree. He is out of all Democratic control, the media is run by his oligarchs and EU money lines his families' pockets.

If they cannot reform, they should be pushed out of the EU.
What is meant by 'Democratic norms?' I suspect that means unerring support for the corporate liberal left, so mass migration, surveillance, virus curfews, taxation in the form of death by thousand cuts meaning fees aplenty rather than specific taxes, hidden subsidies, tax arbitrage, a bundle of social positions, and so forth. 'Democratic norms' should mean whatever Hungary and similar signed up to. I'm not sure the EU are hung up on specifics. They want Hungary and the Visegrád Group to follow these reimagined Democratic Norms, not what they signed up to.
 

Dame_Enda

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Abortion is not an EU competence, so that's irrelevant.
I mean that they are exploiting the inability of the public to protest die to Covid 19 in order to push it through with less political pressure,
 
D

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Good for Hungary? the second largest recipient of EU money - some of it our money.

They should buck up to Democratic norms. FFS, Orban got himself indefinite rule by decree. He is out of all Democratic control, the media is run by his oligarchs and EU money lines his families' pockets.

If they cannot reform, they should be pushed out of the EU.
Total rubbish. His new powers are constrained by the Hungarian parliament and in many respects not as far reaching as the French presidency.
 
D

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There's no way of imposing sanctions on Poland or Hungary without unanimity amongst EU member states. Chances are not a lot will be done about both countries putting their judiciaries in their proper places.
 

Patslatt1

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Good for Poland and Hungary. Judges seem to think they are special guardians of whatever's hot in the Lodge. Judges hand down verdicts on crime. They should realise they don't stand above the elected representatives, they are not the guardian class of Plato.
That's a succinct summary of neofascist/autocratic sense of justice.
 

Patslatt1

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It's not just the financial benefits either. Free movement has been very valuable to them and leaving the European Alliance would leave them open more to being messed with by Russia. The suspension of democracy in Hungary is a direct challenge to the core values of the EU and if they persist with this the EU will have to take steps to suspend and then expel them. If anything the Brexit thing has shown the need for the EU to be more robust. Get rid of these countries that don't really want to be inside the union and spend their time undermining it in one way or another.
Good idea except that Italy's inability to reform its legally corrupt economy runs the risk it will depart and default on its sovereign debts owed to Northern EU countries. It would be very difficult for the EU to cope with four departures including the UK. In time, minor EU sanctions could see the Polish voters turn against its government. Hungary is likely to remain a quasi dictatorship given the government's manipulstion of the media and big corporate interests.
 

Patslatt1

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What is meant by 'Democratic norms?' I suspect that means unerring support for the corporate liberal left, so mass migration, surveillance, virus curfews, taxation in the form of death by thousand cuts meaning fees aplenty rather than specific taxes, hidden subsidies, tax arbitrage, a bundle of social positions, and so forth. 'Democratic norms' should mean whatever Hungary and similar signed up to. I'm not sure the EU are hung up on specifics. They want Hungary and the Visegrád Group to follow these reimagined Democratic Norms, not what they signed up to.
The EU wants media free of government manipulation and an independent judiciary at a bare minimum. Hungary doesn't comply.
 

Patslatt1

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Total rubbish. His new powers are constrained by the Hungarian parliament and in many respects not as far reaching as the French presidency.
His political party has an indefinite majority thanks to mass media manipulation. People tend to believe most of what the see on television.
 

Patslatt1

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There's no way of imposing sanctions on Poland or Hungary without unanimity amongst EU member states. Chances are not a lot will be done about both countries putting their judiciaries in their proper places.
It's interesting that the possibility of an autocrat taking over a democracy isn't properly sanctioned under the EU treaties. Was this a deliberate omission?
 

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