Polish judicial reform: EU launches infringement procedure

Ireniall

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Good idea except that Italy's inability to reform its legally corrupt economy runs the risk it will depart and default on its sovereign debts owed to Northern EU countries. It would be very difficult for the EU to cope with four departures including the UK. In time, minor EU sanctions could see the Polish voters turn against its government. Hungary is likely to remain a quasi dictatorship given the government's manipulstion of the media and big corporate interests.
Yes. Poland is worth fighting over and sidelining the ECJ is unacceptable however infuriating some of its decisions are but a protracted suspension of parliament in an EU country is an affront to the very basics of EU values and simply cannot be tolerated whatever has to be done to stop it including invasion if necessary though I don't foresee that it will be. I feel that very serious legal issues would arise about the running of the EU and the legitimacy of its decisions if a government at the table did not have a democratic mandate or if the basic rights of its citizens were formally abolished for any reason other than in an absolute emergency and apart altogether from these very serious problems no such precedent should be allowed for one second and any period of suspension should come with a mandatory expulsion from the union at the end if the offenders do not mend their ways.
 


Ireniall

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It's interesting that the possibility of an autocrat taking over a democracy isn't properly sanctioned under the EU treaties. Was this a deliberate omission?
After successfully absorbing Spain , Portugal and Greece they likely considered it unlikely to arise. It's absolutely intolerable given the lengths that new applicants ,quite rightly, have to go to for entry. Italy is a major ,ongoing problem and possibly should never have joined the Eurozone which has removed its ability to devalue its currency. My understanding is that the population do not take national politics seriously and have a more regional focus which allows all sorts of chancers to get into government but sure who knows really.
 

Dame_Enda

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Poland depends on the West for its defence against Russia but its happy to poke it in the eye.
 

tsarbomb

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His political party has an indefinite majority thanks to mass media manipulation. People tend to believe most of what the see on television.
The Hungarian people can't access RTE? Well, I'm shocked. When did this happen?

It's interesting that the possibility of an autocrat taking over a democracy isn't properly sanctioned under the EU treaties. Was this a deliberate omission?
What autocrat? Orban is democratically elected. The main opposition party in Hungary are Jobbik. They're a neo Nazi party.

Once an EU member state is friendly enough with at least one other member state there is no way to really punish them because it would require unanimity.
 

Ireniall

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The Hungarian people can't access RTE? Well, I'm shocked. When did this happen?



What autocrat? Orban is democratically elected. The main opposition party in Hungary are Jobbik. They're a neo Nazi party.

Once an EU member state is friendly enough with at least one other member state there is no way to really punish them because it would require unanimity.
Majority rule is not democracy or even close. It's not that they need to be punished-they need to be outside the union if it is to continue to mean anything.
 

tsarbomb

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Majority rule is not democracy or even close. It's not that they need to be punished-they need to be outside the union if it is to continue to mean anything.
Elections in Hungary are fair and free. The problem is that they elected a party who are hostile to the prevailing political orthodoxy, so slurs like 'autocrat' get used.

The EU treaties are clear on the matter. There's no way of punishing or kicking out a member state if that member state has another to back it up, so Hungary will be still in the EU for the foreseeable future.
 

Ireniall

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Elections in Hungary are fair and free. The problem is that they elected a party who are hostile to the prevailing political orthodoxy, so slurs like 'autocrat' get used.

The EU treaties are clear on the matter. There's no way of punishing or kicking out a member state if that member state has another to back it up, so Hungary will be still in the EU for the foreseeable future.
Majorities do not have a right to abolish democracy whatever they think. They can be as against the prevailing orthodoxy as much as they want but removing a persons right to vote for their own political representative or silencing that representative is an act of war on the population whose reaction the EU would be obliged to support if it came to that. The idea that democracy might be suspended in Cork for instance would involve immediate action from the rest of the Irish state and if it is impossible to remove the Hungarians from the EU then a similar situation must hold which is why a way will definitely be found to expel them before it ever comes to that. The foreseeable future is a nebulous timescale but what is definitely foreseeable is that a non democratic country will not be allowed to continue in the EU however long it takes to remove them
 

tsarbomb

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Majorities do not have a right to abolish democracy whatever they think. They can be as against the prevailing orthodoxy as much as they want but removing a persons right to vote for their own political representative or silencing that representative is an act of war on the population whose reaction the EU would be obliged to support if it came to that. The idea that democracy might be suspended in Cork for instance would involve immediate action from the rest of the Irish state and if it is impossible to remove the Hungarians from the EU then a similar situation must hold which is why a way will definitely be found to expel them before it ever comes to that. The foreseeable future is a nebulous timescale but what is definitely foreseeable is that a non democratic country will not be allowed to continue in the EU however long it takes to remove them
How exactly are the Hungarians voting to remove other Hungarians' right to vote? How is democracy being brought to an end there?
 

Buchaill Dana

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How exactly are the Hungarians voting to remove other Hungarians' right to vote? How is democracy being brought to an end there?
Thats a silly post and you know it.
 

Dame_Enda

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The Hungarian people can't access RTE? Well, I'm shocked. When did this happen?



What autocrat? Orban is democratically elected. The main opposition party in Hungary are Jobbik. They're a neo Nazi party.

Once an EU member state is friendly enough with at least one other member state there is no way to really punish them because it would require unanimity.
What about the sacking of anti Orban journalists?
 

Ireniall

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How exactly are the Hungarians voting to remove other Hungarians' right to vote? How is democracy being brought to an end there?
The elected representatives of the majority of Hungarians have suspended parliament indefinitely thereby silencing the voice of the minority of people that depend on it to articulate their point of view. Presumably the majority who indirectly voted for this by putting Orban in power are ok with it but strictly speaking their rights are being infringed also since they have a right to change their mind and no doubt some would -however small the number.

When a majority decides that it no longer wants democracy it's a bad sign for that country because it is a declaration of political civil war which has the potential to eventually lead to actual civil war if they do not relent. The EU can try to save Hungary but if a majority of their own people persist in this course of action then they need to be expelled. Otherwise the EU will be on the hook for removing the illegitimate government by force and you could imagine all of the crying from the delinquent brexiteer contingent across the continent at that. Get the khunts out and stop trade and let them sort it out themselves.

This is far more important and fundamental than brexit. We have shared sovereignty with the other members which means that all of the other members have a little bit of our sovereignty in which they have an influence over how Ireland is governed. The idea that the government of any of these member states might abolish democracy and organise a coup and then continue to wield that influence is totally and utterly ridiculous and any attempt to avoid facing up to what is necessary will lead to very serious problems for the legitimacy of any EU decisions while Orban is at the table. What he's done already is absolutely unacceptable and to my mind plans should be afoot to initiate a strategy which will end in their removal because it seems obvious that Hungary is likely to be a lost cause
 

tsarbomb

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What about the sacking of anti Orban journalists?
Journalists get sacked all the time.

The elected representatives of the majority of Hungarians have suspended parliament indefinitely thereby silencing the voice of the minority of people that depend on it to articulate their point of view. Presumably the majority who indirectly voted for this by putting Orban in power are ok with it but strictly speaking their rights are being infringed also since they have a right to change their mind and no doubt some would -however small the number.

When a majority decides that it no longer wants democracy it's a bad sign for that country because it is a declaration of political civil war which has the potential to eventually lead to actual civil war if they do not relent. The EU can try to save Hungary but if a majority of their own people persist in this course of action then they need to be expelled. Otherwise the EU will be on the hook for removing the illegitimate government by force and you could imagine all of the crying from the delinquent brexiteer contingent across the continent at that. Get the khunts out and stop trade and let them sort it out themselves.

This is far more important and fundamental than brexit. We have shared sovereignty with the other members which means that all of the other members have a little bit of our sovereignty in which they have an influence over how Ireland is governed. The idea that the government of any of these member states might abolish democracy and organise a coup and then continue to wield that influence is totally and utterly ridiculous and any attempt to avoid facing up to what is necessary will lead to very serious problems for the legitimacy of any EU decisions while Orban is at the table. What he's done already is absolutely unacceptable and to my mind plans should be afoot to initiate a strategy which will end in their removal because it seems obvious that Hungary is likely to be a lost cause
The Hungarian parliament voted to give Orban emergency powers because of the coronavirus. The Hungarian people's rights aren't being infringed upon any more than is the case with Irish people being denied freedom of assembly. Most member states have given themselves extra powers because of the virus. Hungary gets singled out only because it doesn't go along with what the chattering classes over here consider acceptable.

There will be a lot of moaning about this from some corners, but Hungary and Poland will remain EU members regardless. Talk of civil war and forcing them out is just desperate piffle
 

Dame_Enda

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I think Orban did a great job on building the fence. But that doesnt make dictatorship okay. Especially when you get billions from the EU structural funds and CAP money.
 

Ireniall

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Journalists get sacked all the time.


The Hungarian parliament voted to give Orban emergency powers because of the coronavirus. The Hungarian people's rights aren't being infringed upon any more than is the case with Irish people being denied freedom of assembly. Most member states have given themselves extra powers because of the virus. Hungary gets singled out only because it doesn't go along with what the chattering classes over here consider acceptable.

There will be a lot of moaning about this from some corners, but Hungary and Poland will remain EU members regardless. Talk of civil war and forcing them out is just desperate piffle
For Gods sake. The Hungarian people are now reliant on the decision of Orban and nothing else to end the suspension of rights. They have no other recourse. If Leo decided that he'd quite like to rule til Christmas he would find the Dail moving against him sharpish and this is the same in every other member state. People who really can't see the difference in these situations are beyond help.
 

tsarbomb

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For Gods sake. The Hungarian people are now reliant on the decision of Orban and nothing else to end the suspension of rights. They have no other recourse. If Leo decided that he'd quite like to rule til Christmas he would find the Dail moving against him sharpish and this is the same in every other member state. People who really can't see the difference in these situations are beyond help.
Wow. That's not even true. Orban's new powers are dependent on the Hungarian parliament. They can revoke them whenever they see fit.
 

talkingshop

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For Gods sake. The Hungarian people are now reliant on the decision of Orban and nothing else to end the suspension of rights. They have no other recourse. If Leo decided that he'd quite like to rule til Christmas he would find the Dail moving against him sharpish and this is the same in every other member state. People who really can't see the difference in these situations are beyond help.
The Hungarian parliament can revoke the powers.

 

Ireniall

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The Hungarian parliament can revoke the powers.

Yeah - I stand corrected but his party has a large majority there and has suspended elections and referenda which in effect enables them to ensure that their majority cannot be overturned. OK-not as bad as suspending parliament but very undemocratic and if parliament cannot sit because of the virus he just drives on. And threatening the free press is just unacceptable. Perhaps expulsion from the EU might be excessive -internal EU sanctions might be more proportionate for the moment but if this drags out past the summer then the EU needs to face up to the fact that a member state has abolished democracy and is bringing the whole EU into increasing disrepute the longer it goes on.
 

tsarbomb

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Yeah - I stand corrected but his party has a large majority there and has suspended elections and referenda which in effect enables them to ensure that their majority cannot be overturned. OK-not as bad as suspending parliament but very undemocratic and if parliament cannot sit because of the virus he just drives on. And threatening the free press is just unacceptable. Perhaps expulsion from the EU might be excessive -internal EU sanctions might be more proportionate for the moment but if this drags out past the summer then the EU needs to face up to the fact that a member state has abolished democracy and is bringing the whole EU into increasing disrepute the longer it goes on.
They have suspended elections because of the spread of Covid 19. Holding an election now would be very dangerous. Many people would be at danger of being infected.
 


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