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Political Affiliations of "Ordinary Citizen" members of the Constitutional Convention


Skyrocket

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Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
3,903
Has the constitutional Convention been stacked with "ordinary citizens", some of whom in reality have political affiliations or could actually be considered politicians themselves having run in local elections?

The member list of the CC (66 "randomly" selected "ordinary citizens" and 33 politicians) is posted here: https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/ListOfMembers.pdf

Consider the backgrounds of the following "ordinary citizen" members:

Lydia Peppard, Meath: A woman of the same name ran for election as a Labour candidate to Trim Town Council. She got 2.65% and was eliminated. ElectionsIreland.org: 2004 Town Council - Trim First Preference Votes

She is listed as being elected "Equality officer" of the Meath Labour party in a 2002 article. Father and son appointed Labour - Independent.ie

She and a neighbour also selected were subject of an Irish Independent article in February raising questions about the transparency of the selection process. Concern as couple and set of neighbours are 'randomly selected' for constitutional body - Independent.ie

Ray Howes, Wicklow: A person of the same name ran for Labour in the Wicklow local elections in 2009. He later joined Sinn Fein. "RECENT LOCAL election candidate for Labour in Wicklow town, Ray Howes, has left the Labour Party to join the ranks of Sinn Féin."
Howes joins Sinn Fein after leaving Labour - Independent.ie

Luke Boyle, Kilkenny. A person of the same name is described in a 2005 article as "a former Labour Party councillor on Kilkenny Corporation." Midlands 103 FM Radio - Podcasts Live Radio Podcast Ireland Radio Station Programmes Midlands 103 FM Podcast Audio Playback - Radio Station Ireland

Richard Codd, Wicklow: A person of the same name is described as "Constituency Chairman" of the "Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party" in a January 2013 submission to the local electoral boundary committee. http://www.boundarycommittee.ie/SubmissionsReceived/Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party - Wicklow.pdf

Is it really credible that these people were "randomly selected"?

There are also other examples but I'm unwilling to post these as there is greater uncertainty due to the names being relatively common and living in large population areas such as Dublin.

It is incumbent on Chairperson Tom Arnold and others leading the Constitutional Convention to demonstrate absolute transparency about the member selection process lest public confidence in the Convention and their recommendations be undermined.
 

Prester Jim

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Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
10,071
Has the constitutional Convention been stacked with "ordinary citizens", some of whom in reality have political affiliations or could actually be considered politicians themselves having run in local elections?

The member list of the CC (66 "randomly" selected "ordinary citizens" and 33 politicians) is posted here: https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/ListOfMembers.pdf

Consider the backgrounds of the following "ordinary citizen" members:

Lydia Peppard, Meath: A woman of the same name ran for election as a Labour candidate to Trim Town Council. She got 2.65% and was eliminated. ElectionsIreland.org: 2004 Town Council - Trim First Preference Votes

She is listed as being elected "Equality officer" of the Meath Labour party in a 2002 article. Father and son appointed Labour - Independent.ie

She and a neighbour also selected were subject of an Irish Independent article in February raising questions about the transparency of the selection process. Concern as couple and set of neighbours are 'randomly selected' for constitutional body - Independent.ie

Ray Howes, Wicklow: A person of the same name ran for Labour in the Wicklow local elections in 2009. He later joined Sinn Fein. "RECENT LOCAL election candidate for Labour in Wicklow town, Ray Howes, has left the Labour Party to join the ranks of Sinn Féin."
Howes joins Sinn Fein after leaving Labour - Independent.ie

Luke Boyle, Kilkenny. A person of the same name is described in a 2005 article as "a former Labour Party councillor on Kilkenny Corporation." Midlands 103 FM Radio - Podcasts Live Radio Podcast Ireland Radio Station Programmes Midlands 103 FM Podcast Audio Playback - Radio Station Ireland

Richard Codd, Wicklow: A person of the same name is described as "Constituency Chairman" of the "Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party" in a January 2013 submission to the local electoral boundary committee. http://www.boundarycommittee.ie/SubmissionsReceived/Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party - Wicklow.pdf

Is it really credible that these people were "randomly selected"?

There are also other examples but I'm unwilling to post these as there is greater uncertainty due to the names being relatively common and living in large population areas such as Dublin.

It is incumbent on Chairperson Tom Arnold and others leading the Constitutional Convention to demonstrate absolute transparency about the member selection process lest public confidence in the Convention and their recommendations be undermined.
This just goes to prove that we really cannot trust our political parties to act honourably without constant supervision, whenever they think they can hoodwink the public and stack the deck against us they do.
I bet they do nothing about this unless there is a massive fuss about it.
 

Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,845
Nice catch Skyrocket. It's worth reading some of the rubbish they're putting up there:

The Convention is a decision-making forum of 100 people, made up of 66 citizens, randomly selected and broadly representative of Irish society; 33 parliamentarians, nominated by their respective political parties and including an elected representative from each of the political parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly which accepted an invitation from the Government; and myself as it’s an independent Chairman.
Now: Read this document (Which is helpfully scanned in so you can't copy passages): https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/BehaviourAndAttitudes.pdf

I don't have an issue with the constitutional convention in theory.

I DO have an issue with selecting random people and not having entry criteria. I wouldn't trust a random person to put my toast under the grill. If you do this, you've got to have some sort of entry test examining their basic knowledge of the constitution and other state bodies.

I DO have an issue with them trying to convince us that the govt of the day isn't stacking it full of their supporters/failed candidates.

RE the Peppard thing though, it's perfectly transparent as to how they're meant to be selected, so I can actually see how 2 neighbours would be selected if you don't organise your stratification correctly.
 

ger12

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,255
Are these the members of the political parties? Or the ordinary citizens?

Am smelling a rat. The % reached yesterday for same sex marriage is a bit odd I thought. As a strong supporter of same sex marriage I was delighted initially and I do believe it will pass a referendum, but the high % figure I don't see on the ground.
 

Dame_Enda

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Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
52,090
Now we know why the names were kept secret until now. I've always suspected the CC was nothing but a rubber stamp and a sop to the Labour party. I support gay marriage, but I don't like being taken for a fool.
 

tigerben

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Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
4,621
That what passes for Random in Ireland. Its lucky politics in Ireland can't get any lower than it is, and then communication is always blamed when in fact it's strokes like this that people hate. Good find and will it be reported on in RTE!
 

Al Gebra

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Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
6,023
Are these the members of the political parties? Or the ordinary citizens?

Am smelling a rat. The % reached yesterday for same sex marriage is a bit odd I thought. As a strong supporter of same sex marriage I was delighted initially and I do believe it will pass a referendum, but the high % figure I don't see on the ground.
While I agree that there is the semblance of what appears to be a stacked deck in the selection of participants I don't think the figures are particularly out of whack with recent opinion polls on the subject.
73% seems to be the average approval rating in the polls and it was 79% in the CC vote. Higher than the poll but not significantly.
 

RobertW

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Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
20,483
Good work on behalf of the opening poster.

If it could be proven that one of the 66 "randomly" selected citizens appears to have not been chosen randomly then this selection process (and hence the convention) is a farce.

The two neighbours chosen is suspicious with the odds (according to the independent) stacked at 2.5 billion to one.

How many of the random 66 are from areas that would be classified as socially deprived?

What are their age groups?
 

an innocent abroad

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Joined
Apr 15, 2010
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27,685
According to moaning Mullins on news this morning, they were put under pressure re the ' same sex marriage bill.'.
 

Sync

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Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
28,845
The two neighbours chosen is suspicious with the odds (according to the independent) stacked at 2.5 billion to one.
That bit depends on the stratification of the sampling. For instance they select an area where they want 2 people. There are 100 people in the area. You or I would take 100 names and addresses, radomise them and call them one by one. If you didn't randomise them and say called them in order of their phone number or address, then that's how you'd get instances like the one highlighted by Peppard.

Whoever wrote the Indo article didn't read the publicised sampling info from the board, which makes it patently clear that the 2.5 billion figure is rubbish. Insert Sync Macro #435: The Indo is staffed by very very lazy journalists who don't like reading.
 

Analyzer

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Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
Has the constitutional Convention been stacked with "ordinary citizens", some of whom in reality have political affiliations or could actually be considered politicians themselves having run in local elections?

The member list of the CC (66 "randomly" selected "ordinary citizens" and 33 politicians) is posted here: https://www.constitution.ie/Documents/ListOfMembers.pdf

Consider the backgrounds of the following "ordinary citizen" members:

Lydia Peppard, Meath: A woman of the same name ran for election as a Labour candidate to Trim Town Council. She got 2.65% and was eliminated. ElectionsIreland.org: 2004 Town Council - Trim First Preference Votes

She is listed as being elected "Equality officer" of the Meath Labour party in a 2002 article. Father and son appointed Labour - Independent.ie

She and a neighbour also selected were subject of an Irish Independent article in February raising questions about the transparency of the selection process. Concern as couple and set of neighbours are 'randomly selected' for constitutional body - Independent.ie

Ray Howes, Wicklow: A person of the same name ran for Labour in the Wicklow local elections in 2009. He later joined Sinn Fein. "RECENT LOCAL election candidate for Labour in Wicklow town, Ray Howes, has left the Labour Party to join the ranks of Sinn Féin."
Howes joins Sinn Fein after leaving Labour - Independent.ie

Luke Boyle, Kilkenny. A person of the same name is described in a 2005 article as "a former Labour Party councillor on Kilkenny Corporation." Midlands 103 FM Radio - Podcasts Live Radio Podcast Ireland Radio Station Programmes Midlands 103 FM Podcast Audio Playback - Radio Station Ireland

Richard Codd, Wicklow: A person of the same name is described as "Constituency Chairman" of the "Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party" in a January 2013 submission to the local electoral boundary committee. http://www.boundarycommittee.ie/SubmissionsReceived/Wicklow Constituency Fine Gael Party - Wicklow.pdf

Is it really credible that these people were "randomly selected"?

There are also other examples but I'm unwilling to post these as there is greater uncertainty due to the names being relatively common and living in large population areas such as Dublin.

It is incumbent on Chairperson Tom Arnold and others leading the Constitutional Convention to demonstrate absolute transparency about the member selection process lest public confidence in the Convention and their recommendations be undermined.
Nepotism and gombeenism are rife in this society. No wonder Gimmemore has so much time for the convention. The Looper party stink even more tha FFinished or the Greens at this stage.
 

Radix

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Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
10,031
Guys, get a grip.

This is but mere coincidence.

:)
 

Victor Meldrew

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Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
7,184
Is it really credible that these people were "randomly selected"?

There are also other examples but I'm unwilling to post these as there is greater uncertainty due to the names being relatively common and living in large population areas such as Dublin.

It is incumbent on Chairperson Tom Arnold and others leading the Constitutional Convention to demonstrate absolute transparency about the member selection process lest public confidence in the Convention and their recommendations be undermined.
So it is full of party hacks and fellow travellers?

a) well, I never. In Ireland of all places

b) I would rather a collection of unelected party hacks (once broadly representative of the dail ) than uninterested chavs and hooray-Henrys who do not see beyond their own gatepost and are the embodiment of Thatcher's claim that there is no such thing as society. I may be a liberal Blueshirt, but I would rather have an informed Shinner there than someone who voted FG for low taxes and did not think beyond their income.

c) Freed from the burden of re-election, many politicians are actually decent, morally coherent, and compassionate. It is the forces of towing a warped party line and craving votes from old cronies who actually vote and embody what Yeats railed against a hundred years ago that has the country banjaxed.
 
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Victor Meldrew

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Jun 8, 2007
Messages
7,184
It is funny that some of the shrill who rail against the existence of some "insider club" of unelected minority interests who DARE decide what is right for our country, also:

Celebrate 1916,
Consider the "provisional government" to have relevence (ever)
Have great time for the Dev - McQuaid constitution


You cannot have it both ways...
 

wickalah

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Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
451
Nepotism and gombeenism are rife in this society. No wonder Gimmemore has so much time for the convention. The Looper party stink even more tha FFinished or the Greens at this stage.
Ray Howes, Wicklow: A person of the same name ran for Labour in the Wicklow local elections in 2009. He later joined Sinn Fein.
 

Skyrocket

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Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
3,903
While I agree that there is the semblance of what appears to be a stacked deck in the selection of participants I don't think the figures are particularly out of whack with recent opinion polls on the subject.
73% seems to be the average approval rating in the polls and it was 79% in the CC vote. Higher than the poll but not significantly.
I think they would have got the majorities they wanted (although less emphatic majorities) on the issues before the convention without engaging in what appears to be underhanded attempt to stack the convention with current or former party members / candidates.

It was unnecessary and is totally unacceptable.

Absolute transparency about the "ordinary citizen" members is now required.

Specifically,

- The selection process must be published in full for scrutiny.

- Existing "ordinary citizen members" should be asked to declare whether they are or ever were members of a political party. They should also be asked the same about their immediate family members (husband, wife, son etc.).

- A credible explanation must be given as to how 3 former Labour party election candidates ended up as members of the constitutional convention as "ordinary citizens".

- People must be held accountable for this farce.
 

Orbit v2

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Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
11,562
According to moaning Mullins on news this morning, they were put under pressure re the ' same sex marriage bill.'.
Tom Arnold was on later denying Mullen's allegations (to the extent that no such problems were brought to his attention). I think they should explain *exactly* how the members were selected. It's clearly a contradiction to say 66 people were selected randomly, and yet that could be a representative sample of the population. That kind of sample would be way too small. They need to disclose all the details, including how many people declined to participate etc.

One thing Mullen kind of implied, which rung true for me, was that people aren't necessarily going to be brow-beaten, but there is a natural bias towards change and "reform", which favours the liberal agenda at occasions like this.
 

Al Gebra

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Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
6,023
I think they would have got the majorities they wanted (although less emphatic majorities) on the issues before the convention without engaging in what appears to be underhanded attempt to stack the convention with current or former party members / candidates.

It was unnecessary and is totally unacceptable.

Absolute transparency about the "ordinary citizen" members is now required.

Specifically,

- The selection process must be published in full for scrutiny.

- Existing "ordinary citizen members" should be asked to declare whether they are or ever were members of a political party. They should also be asked the same about their immediate family members (husband, wife, son etc.).

- A credible explanation must be given as to how 3 former Labour party election candidates ended up as members of the constitutional convention as "ordinary citizens".

- People must be held accountable for this farce.
I am in favour of gay marriage but the much lauded constitutional convention was supposed to be inclusive of all viewpoints.
If it's not it's a pointless exercise and a waste of time and resources and just more gombeenism.
 
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