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Political discrimination law in Northern Ireland

MichaelR

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Hello,

Northern Ireland has a peculiar law that bans discrimination on political opinion. I am not aware of similar laws in other jurisdictions, and it would be interesting to find out how it works.

This law was brought to public attention by the Ashers Bakery case. It concerned an order for a cake with a message of support for gay marriage (as an institution, as opposed to any particular couple). This was a political message; in fact the other jurisdiction on the island wagearing up for a Referendum on the issue at that very time. The judge decided that refusal of such an order was discrimination based on political opinion. Sinn Féin supported the decision of the judge.

I would like to understand whether this law, in general, extends to cases when the service provider is expected to participate in promotion of an opinion (as opposed to simply serving a person who is known to have an opinion). For example, let's take a baker who is an SF member. Would they be required to accept an order for a cake with a "Quis Separabit" message? (No paramilitary images). Moreover, if their party policy is in support of the judgement, would they be willing to uphold and obey this interpretation of the law?
 


Irish-Rationalist

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A UDA man walked into a Sinn Fein bakery and ordered a Quis Seperabit cake.

The SF baker said "Oh, we'd love to bake you a Quis seperabit cake, but unfortunately we've decommissioned all of our semtex, which we use for icing on our Quis separabit cakes". "Would you care for a 1916 commemorative cake instead"?

"Okay" said the UDA man. He collected his 1916 commemorative cake 2 days later, and went home and ate it and didn't blow up.

True story.
 

between the bridges

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Hello,


Meh...
 

talkingshop

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Hello,

Northern Ireland has a peculiar law that bans discrimination on political opinion. I am not aware of similar laws in other jurisdictions, and it would be interesting to find out how it works.

This law was brought to public attention by the Ashers Bakery case. It concerned an order for a cake with a message of support for gay marriage (as an institution, as opposed to any particular couple). This was a political message; in fact the other jurisdiction on the island wagearing up for a Referendum on the issue at that very time. The judge decided that refusal of such an order was discrimination based on political opinion. Sinn Féin supported the decision of the judge.

I would like to understand whether this law, in general, extends to cases when the service provider is expected to participate in promotion of an opinion (as opposed to simply serving a person who is known to have an opinion). For example, let's take a baker who is an SF member. Would they be required to accept an order for a cake with a "Quis Separabit" message? (No paramilitary images). Moreover, if their party policy is in support of the judgement, would they be willing to uphold and obey this interpretation of the law?
Yes the way the law has been interpreted in the judgment one cannot be treated less favourably because of one's political opinion. So this means effectively seems to mean that a baker must produce any and every political opinion on a cake if requested (unless presumably the message was advocating breaking the law - e.g. Kill all Catholics). If he would produce one opinion, and not another, he is discriminating against the holder of the second opinion. It is very bizarre, and I'm sure would never have been intended by the legislators, who I am sure were just thinking about general refusal of service to someone (e.g. a republican, or a loyalist) because of their political opinions, rather than forcing people to reproduce political opinions that they disagree with. "Criminalise homosexual acts" would be a political opinion, so on the basis of this judgment I cannot see that any one could refuse to print it.

I think it really is wrong, and if this judgment is not overturned I hope Northern Ireland will amend their law to say that it will not be disrcimination on grounds of political opinion to refuse to reproduce the political opinions themselves, or something similar.
 

Mickeymac

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Northern Ireland has a peculiar law that bans discrimination on political opinion.


Funniest I have read here for quite some time, you need to really read up some about the sick counties and unionist administrations past and present sir.:lol::lol::lol:
 

Enigma Variations

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Hello,

Northern Ireland has a peculiar law that bans discrimination
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to understand whether this law, in general, extends to cases when the service provider is expected to participate in promotion of an opinion (as opposed to simply serving a person who is known to have an opinion). For example, let's take a baker who is an SF member. Would they be required to accept an order for a cake with a "Quis Separabit" message? (No paramilitary images). Moreover, if their party policy is in support of the judgement, would they be willing to uphold and obey this interpretation of the law?
A link to the judgment is provided below. It is 41 pages long, and will provide answer your questions. Have fun!

http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Cases and Settlements/2015/Lee-v-Ashers_Judgement.pdf

:)
 

MichaelR

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Funniest I have read here for quite some time, you need to really read up some about the sick counties and unionist administrations past and present sir.:lol::lol::lol:
I do know that the unionist administrations have brought in very strange laws. Flags and Emblems Act and what not. (And an Englishman told me that hanging the Union Jack on lampposts actually debases the Union Jack, so apparently the aforementioned Act got it all wrong).

It's just that right now I am interested in this particular law.
 

MichaelR

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A link to the judgment is provided below. It is 41 pages long, and will provide answer your questions. Have fun!

http://www.equalityni.org/ECNI/media/ECNI/Cases and Settlements/2015/Lee-v-Ashers_Judgement.pdf

:)
I do not agree with the judgement, but to evaluate the political law, I would like to look at previous cases when the law was applied.

Also, for SF members around here, I would like to ask clarification whether you believe bakers affiliated with your party and supporting its aims would bake a cake with a Unionist message, provided this message does not incite or condone any law-breaking.

(If anyone is interested - the parts where I believe the judge erred are claims that support for same sex marriage is "inextricably linked" to sexual orientation. It is not so linked, as the Referendum has evidenced. Moreover if it was so linked in law, then the judge would have to introduce SSM itself in NI by a court order because the State itself is bound by anti-discrimination law. I believe, however, that the link does not exist, and that the sole valid rationale for same-sex marriage is [re]defining marriage as a matter of personal choice of identity, as the Supreme Court of the United States has done. However, I can not evaluate the judge's application of the political law without knowing more of how that law generally works. If the political law was applied correctly, then the judgement stands even if the sexual orientation law was applied incorrectly).
 
Last edited:

Mickeymac

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I do know that the unionist administrations have brought in very strange laws. Flags and Emblems Act and what not. (And an Englishman told me that hanging the Union Jack on lampposts actually debases the Union Jack, so apparently the aforementioned Act got it all wrong).

It's just that right now I am interested in this particular law.

Why be interested in a stupid law about flags and emblems?
Have you ever heard of this "law" which was imposed on one section of the community in the sick counties and repealed by the Brits in 1973?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Authorities_(Special_Powers)_Act_(Northern_Ireland)_1922





How you managed to ignore the above Michael really astounds me, I suggest you read up a lot more before venturing on here in future.
 

MichaelR

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How you managed to ignore the above Michael really astounds me, I suggest you read up a lot more before venturing on here in future.
I am pointedly trying to avoid anything directly linked to violence. It's just not the issue at hand. I want a thread about political discrimination law, there are enough threads about "the Brits".
 

Mickeymac

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I am pointedly trying to avoid anything directly linked to violence. It's just not the issue at hand. I want a thread about political discrimination law, there are enough threads about "the Brits".


Have you read my link in #9?
 

Enigma Variations

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I am pointedly trying to avoid anything directly linked to violence. It's just not the issue at hand. I want a thread about political discrimination law, there are enough threads about "the Brits".
If a Muslim baker refused to accept a job which required him to produce a cake produced for a confirmation or bar mitzvah on the grounds that these were infidel religious practices, he'd be guilty of religious discrimination, not political. Likewise with the gay cake row. The ruling was based upon the fact that it discriminated on grounds of sexual orientation, not politics, regardless of how much you want to "spin" it as being something else. The only people who'd seriously refuse to take on a job baking a gay cake are religious loons. I have no sympathy for them. Their objections are based upon bigotry.
 

GDPR

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I am pointedly trying to avoid anything directly linked to violence. It's just not the issue at hand. I want a thread about political discrimination law, there are enough threads about "the Brits".
The basic reason behind the drama is that they belong to an Auld Licht Presbyterian group which considers the OO little more than Satanists and the OO were firing a shot across their brow in all probability.
 

between the bridges

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The basic reason behind the drama is that they belong to an Auld Licht Presbyterian group which considers the OO little more than Satanists and the OO were firing a shot across their brow in all probability.
Word...
 

GDPR

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:shock:
Wtf?
Auld Licht= Old Light. 18 th and early to mid 19 th century Presbyterianism was a battle flied between the two parties of the New and Old Lights though both were cast from the lime light by the radical changes in Ulster Protestantism that came with the out break of mass hysteria in 1859 (which actually included Prods getting stigmatas!).
 

Enigma Variations

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Auld Licht= Old Light. 18 th and early to mid 19 th century Presbyterianism was a battle flied between the two parties of the New and Old Lights though both were cast from the lime light by the radical changes in Ulster Protestantism that came with the out break of mass hysteria in 1859 (which actually included Prods getting stigmatas!).
:shock:
Stigmata as well................ Bejasus! And there was me thinking that only Catholic lunatics self-afflicted themselves with that! Please don't tell me next that they do strange things with goats as well!:p
This place is much, much stranger that I could ever have imagined.
 

Mickeymac

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:shock:
Stigmata as well................ Bejasus! And there was me thinking that only Catholic lunatics self-afflicted themselves with that! Please don't tell me next that they do strange things with goats as well!:p
This place is much, much stranger that I could ever have imagined.


It's all about faith pal, try telling the parents and grandparents of a little local 5 year old boy, who prayed, together with millions of others on Facebook to save him from imminent death due to an awesome brain tumor..................today sir, that little guy is playing football.

Before I left for NC, somebody said something about the negative re social media, today thankfully, I have the time to post the positive.

Without faith sir, you have nothing.

Padre Pio btw was the Saint all of those people Worldwide prayed to for that little kid and I feel so proud to be one of them.
 

MichaelR

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If a Muslim baker refused to accept a job which required him to produce a cake produced for a confirmation or bar mitzvah on the grounds that these were infidel religious practices, he'd be guilty of religious discrimination, not political. Likewise with the gay cake row. The ruling was based upon the fact that it discriminated on grounds of sexual orientation, not politics, regardless of how much you want to "spin" it as being something else. The only people who'd seriously refuse to take on a job baking a gay cake are religious loons. I have no sympathy for them. Their objections are based upon bigotry.
Your argument would be perfect if they refused to make a cake for someone's same-sex marriage. But this was not the case. This was a political campaign cake, not a wedding cake.

To take your Muslim example, imagine the Muslim baker being asked by a Jew to bake a "Support Israel" cake. It is obvious that the Jew's support of Israel is linked to the fact that the Jew is a Jew. Yet this is a political campaign.
 

Mickeymac

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Your argument would be perfect if they refused to make a cake for someone's same-sex marriage. But this was not the case. This was a political campaign cake, not a wedding cake.

To take your Muslim example, imagine the Muslim baker being asked by a Jew to bake a "Support Israel" cake. It is obvious that the Jew's support of Israel is linked to the fact that the Jew is a Jew. Yet this is a political campaign.


There is obviously no doubt whatsoever that this was a political stunt and manufactured by the moon howlers and fundies within the DUP, everyone with a brain knows that, probably the reason most sane and sensible folk ignore it.
 


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