Politics.ie "No Border in Ireland" Campaign

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,103
Hello all,

As most of us are aware, Ireland is heading into one of the most crucially important negotiations in the history of the State in mid December with regards to Brexit. Ireland faces a hard border being implemented in the island which will not only cause economic upheaval but possibly tear up the GFA and affect many cross border initiatives such as healthcare and agrifood.

Some of you may have read Tony Connolly's article on the Irish efforts to date to avoid a hard Brexit. If not, please do: https://www.rte.ie/amp/920981/

Ireland has potentially over a million citizens living North of the border. Citizens who's ancestors felt the South abandoned them in 1922. If Dublin caves on this issue, these citizens will be at the full mercy of the British Tory party and outside the ECJ potentially. It is crucially important that for these citizens alone, we must ensure that the full State apparatus is behind Ireland's push to ensure that NI remain in regulatory harmony with the Republic.

This is something that every citizen and organisation including politics.ie should get behind. We have three weeks to maximise our presence. Getting onto family in the UK to plead with them to voice loudly that we will not accept a border in Ireland is one such example of what we can do.

Earlier this week, the British rag papers wrote how Varadkar "better shut his mouth" in relation to Brexit. That is how we know that we are winning. But a lot more must be done. If the UK offer a deal on the other two Brexit red lines we will come under pressure to move the Border issue till the trade talks and that is when our veto becomes obsolete.

To show solidarity with the government and in light of the "No Borders in Ireland" campaign, that the country needs, I have changed my avatar. I ask that all of you supporting the campaign do the same until the Brexit negotiation in December.

rus
 


murf13

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
2,073
There can be no place on our island for an artificial and imaginary line.
There can be no going back.
 

NYCKY

Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
13,521
Hello all,

As most of us are aware, Ireland is heading into one of the most crucially important negotiations in the history of the State in mid December with regards to Brexit. Ireland faces a hard border being implemented in the island which will not only cause economic upheaval but possibly tear up the GFA and affect many cross border initiatives such as healthcare and agrifood.

Some of you may have read Tony Connolly's article on the Irish efforts to date to avoid a hard Brexit. If not, please do: https://www.rte.ie/amp/920981/

Ireland has potentially over a million citizens living North of the border. Citizens who's ancestors felt the South abandoned them in 1922. If Dublin caves on this issue, these citizens will be at the full mercy of the British Tory party and outside the ECJ potentially. It is crucially important that for these citizens alone, we must ensure that the full State apparatus is behind Ireland's push to ensure that NI remain in regulatory harmony with the Republic.

This is something that every citizen and organisation including politics.ie should get behind. We have three weeks to maximise our presence. Getting onto family in the UK to plead with them to voice loudly that we will not accept a border in Ireland is one such example of what we can do.

Earlier this week, the British rag papers wrote how Varadkar "better shut his mouth" in relation to Brexit. That is how we know that we are winning. But a lot more must be done. If the UK offer a deal on the other two Brexit red lines we will come under pressure to move the Border issue till the trade talks and that is when our veto becomes obsolete.

To show solidarity with the government and in light of the "No Borders in Ireland" campaign, that the country needs, I have changed my avatar. I ask that all of you supporting the campaign do the same until the Brexit negotiation in December.

rus
The DUP has gotten a pledge of an extra billion quid for Nothern Ireland. That's a lot of mercy.
 

GabhaDubh

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
2,559
The outreach of the GFA, by all sides, cannot be compromised. It is sacrosanct.
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
55,076
Look. If the UK leaves the Single Market and Customs Union, then there are going to be some sort of customs checks - whether manual or electronic. I think Varadkar made a big mistake if reports of the Dept of Finance being told to drop exploration of contingency plans are true. The UK wants to sign trade deals with non EU states, and remaining in the Single Market and Customs Union prevent that.

In theory I would like to see some sort of Special Status for NI, so that the border/customs controls would be moved to the Irish sea. But a Tory govt propped up by the DUP probably won't agree to that (though I would argue a majority for it might exist in the House of Commons).

If the Irish Sea-customs border can't be agreed, then we should explore obscure and largely invisible methods of customs duty collection and border control, having regard to the fact that visible ones might be in danger of being targeted by dissident or even provisional Republicans.

We also need to be conscious of the fact that the final deal will be voted on by Qualified Majority Voting where we won't have a veto - though there remains the question of whether an Irish referendum would be required. I personally believe Article 50 clearly allows a country to leave the EU without a treaty change. On the other hand, if a Brexit agreement fundamentally altered the constitutional role of the EU (roughly the wording of the Crotty Judgement) then a referendum might be required. Then again that ruling was 31 years ago and many treaties have passed since then. The old Article 48 (possible renumbered now) does contained provisions for a "simplified revision procedure" which might allow a deal to be ratified without referendums.
 
Last edited:

Sync

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
29,616
I heard that if 25 of us change our logos, the UK will give in, but every time someone changes it BACK a fairy dies.
 

Hillmanhunter1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
2,479
Ireland needs to maintain the hardest line possible in relation to the border issue, and to ensure that the December meeting of the 27 determines that sufficient progress has not been made on this issue.

Britain has put itself in this position, not Ireland, and it is not for Ireland to offer a scintilla of assistance in getting them out of it.

There will inevitably be a second vote in the UK and it is in the interests of Ireland to ensure that the Brexit option is as unappealing as possible.

To use a phrase with echoes from Anglo/Irish history I believe that in a second referendum the overwhelming majority of voters will look at the hard Brexit option and conclude that it is "such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further."
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25,560
The counter argument is that the harder the Border

- the sooner it will be gone.....

How and ever while Politically the Border issue is our Primary concern

- it is Anglo-Irish Trade that is by far the more important issue from an Economic viewpoint

We are not hearing so much about that

- even though it has the potential to severely impact our economic well being.
 

Hillmanhunter1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
2,479
The counter argument is that the harder the Border

- the sooner it will be gone.....

How and ever while Politically the Border issue is our Primary concern

- it is Anglo-Irish Trade that is by far the more important issue from an Economic viewpoint

We are not hearing so much about that

- even though it has the potential to severely impact our economic well being.
re Anglo-Irish trade - look at the statistics in my signature. EU-Irish trade is far more important.
 

Catalpast

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25,560
re Anglo-Irish trade - look at the statistics in my signature. EU-Irish trade is far more important.
For home grown domestic companies Trade with Britain is still hugely important

We are caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea on this one....
 

Hillmanhunter1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
2,479
For home grown domestic companies Trade with Britain is still hugely important

We are caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea on this one....
Gotta disagree. Its a no brainer - there will be losers in Ireland of course, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Also, while it is true that domestic companies account for a large part of the trade with the UK, too much of that is low added value foodstuffs. Cheap food for the masses has always been a key policy plank in the UK, and in a post Brexit world our farmers will be competing with Argentina and New Zealand where farming is done on an entirely different economic basis.

Better by far to produce (possibly less) high value foodstuffs for the continental market - take advantage of the Green Ireland/L'Irlande Sauvage perception. It may of course mean that some of our lazier exporters might need to learn a European language.
 

Hillmanhunter1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
2,479
Those statistics are silly, the EU is far bigger than the UK. To try to compare them is nonsense.
Perhaps you have "alternative facts'?
 

Strawberry

Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
16,484
Those statistics are silly, the EU is far bigger than the UK. To try to compare them is nonsense.
A comparison between them isn't really the point. EU-Irish trade being far more important to our economy is the point.
 

SideysGhost

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
17,360
Gotta disagree. Its a no brainer - there will be losers in Ireland of course, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Also, while it is true that domestic companies account for a large part of the trade with the UK, too much of that is low added value foodstuffs. Cheap food for the masses has always been a key policy plank in the UK, and in a post Brexit world our farmers will be competing with Argentina and New Zealand where farming is done on an entirely different economic basis.

Better by far to produce (possibly less) high value foodstuffs for the continental market - take advantage of the Green Ireland/L'Irlande Sauvage perception. It may of course mean that some of our lazier exporters might need to learn a European language.
It's mad how many p.ie posters are firmly stuck in the 1970s and refuse to engage with reality. Dozens of posters now have informed Cattlepest of the reality that trade with the UK isn't very much of the total and most of it is agriculture, but he refuses to listen and warbles away stuck in his 1970s fantasy that UK trade is 90% of the total, or something.

Britain can't feed itself so the low-value-add agri exports won't be badly affected. And as you say Ireland would be better off positioning itself for the high-end, clean green image, high-value foodstuffs anyway. There'll always be orders of magnitude more wealthy high-end punters with discerning palates and fat wallets in the EU than in Britain, especially post-Brexit.
 

NYCKY

Moderator
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
13,521
Perhaps you have "alternative facts'?

Nah, I just don't cherry pick selective statistics.

The UK comprises roughly one sixth to one seventh of the EU GDP depending on what report you read. Assuming that figure of 8% if EU exports to the UK is correct, it's 8% of a much much bigger pound/euro figure than the 48% of of UK exports to the EU.

Simply put, you're not comparing apples to apples.
 

Hillmanhunter1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
2,479
Nah, I just don't cherry pick selective statistics.

The UK comprises roughly one sixth to one seventh of the EU GDP depending on what report you read. Assuming that figure of 8% if EU exports to the UK is correct, it's 8% of a much much bigger pound/euro figure than the 48% of of UK exports to the EU.

Simply put, you're not comparing apples to apples.
Are you new to numbers?
 

Strawberry

Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
16,484
Nah, I just don't cherry pick selective statistics.

The UK comprises roughly one sixth to one seventh of the EU GDP depending on what report you read. Assuming that figure of 8% if EU exports to the UK is correct, it's 8% of a much much bigger pound/euro figure than the 48% of of UK exports to the EU.

Simply put, you're not comparing apples to apples.
He's not trying to compare apples to apples. He's explicitly pointing out that the comparison between the UK and the EU is of that between and apple and a blue whale.
 

Mick Mac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
7,851
Can you confirm your campaign will be diverse and all inclusive?
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top