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Possible reduction in money paid to teachers for supervision and substitution.


davidcameron

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Teachers' €106m supervision pay set to be slashed - Latest News, Education - Independent.ie

The following quotes are from the Comments section (comments are removed after 48 hours):

"TheSilentOne" says:

Irish teachers spend more time in classrooms than other European teachers. That is all they are paid for. Most Irish teachers spend more than their 22 hours a week in school correcting, preparing etc (all part of the 30-40 hrs that is done in Europe)

It is not part of their contract to supervise students at break or lunch time. It never was. This is an oversight from the Dept of Education when initially drawing up their contracts. As mentioned above it used to be done voluntarily but this was reversed about ten years ago.
How could the Department be so stupid? When children attend school, the school authorities are in loco parentis.

"independentman1" says:

Just a note to you teacher bashers who may be lining up with your comments! 99.99% of teachers are conscientious hard working people. They work every minute in front of a class..you have to , or they will eat you up. There can be no skiving off to the back shed for a rest or a smoke! --if you do you come back to a disaster in the room..not on any more ! Yard supervision is intense work, if a child is hurt; your neck is on the block for it ...so you better be on the ball. On yard supervision days you get no lunch or a snatched lunch before launching into the afternoon's work. Nobody has it easy these days, not even teachers! So go easy on the bashing!!!
It's unlikely that a teacher would be supervising during break-times on a day when he or she has nine classes on the day (3 before 11 a.m. break, 3 between 11 a.m. break and lunchtime, 3 after lunchtime). The teacher probably supervises at lunchtime when he or she has a time when he or she has a period before or after lunchtime in which he or she does not have class.

Teachers have periods when they do not have class (other than break-time and lunchtime).

Supervision and substitution are hardly as stressful as teaching itself.
 
Last edited:

gatsbygirl20

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Teachers' €106m supervision pay set to be slashed - Latest News, Education - Independent.ie

The following quotes are from the Comments section (comments are removed after 48 hours):

"TheSilentOne" says:



How could the Department be so stupid? When children attend school, the school authorities are in loco parentis.

"independentman1" says:



It's unlikely that a teacher would be supervising during break-times on a day when he or she has nine classes on the day (3 before 11 a.m. break, 3 between 11 a.m. break and lunchtime, 3 after lunchtime). The teacher probably supervises at lunchtime when he or she has a time when he or she does not has a period before or after lunchtime in which he or she does not have class.

Teachers have periods when they do not have class (other than break-time and lunchtime).

Supervision and substitution are hardly as stressful as teaching itself.
Teachers used to do this work voluntarily. It is not just lunchtime by the way, but whenever the young people are on the premises, which varies from school to school---what time a bus arrives, etc.

You have to watch the students at every minute of the day to ensure the safety of all, to be alert to bullying and so on

In our school we supervise football at 8.15 before school starts and also the Leaving Cert social area before class

All breaks must be supervised, including lunch. In-between class must be supervised---especially the cloakroom and toilets, as bullying often happens when students are changing classrooms, or when they go to their locker area to pick up a textbook, go to the loo, etc.

After school locker areas must be checked, toilets and little-used rooms checked to make sure students are not alone, or locked in by accident, or there might be bullying, dope smoking etc.

Then of course teachers take their own detention

Teachers must also supervise classes for absent colleagues, or for teachers gone with the football team, or on Transition year trips etc.

You are right--supervision is not as draining as teaching, but it can turn your working day into chaos, as you might have been depending on a free 40 minutes to set up a Powerpoint presentation, get your photocopies out on desks, follow up a discipline issue

And of course supervision itself has follow-up work---dealing with the fall-out from a playground fight, contacting parents, dealing with an upset child, or First Aid issues

You always seem to be chasing your tail on the days you have a lot of supervision. It totally disorganises you.That is why teachers hate it. Irish teachers have very high class contact hours as it is, and are always chasing a few spare minutes to catch up with stuff or to see a student.

Visiting teachers on exchange programmes from other countries always comment on the amount of time we spend in class compared to teachers in their own schools.

I much preferred it when supervision was voluntary, actually. The few bob you get is eaten up with deductions from your salary

The Irish education system survived for years on the unpaid voluntary work of Catholic religious orders. Lay teachers absorbed this culture too, and picked up the pieces, doing lots of extra unpaid stuff wherever they saw the need. The government never saw the true cost of some of this work, and totally took it for granted---extra-curricular work, handling budgets, running Subject Departments etc. Then came the dawn......
 

Keith-M

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Why it comes to comes to substitution there should be no extra payment. Like almost everyone in he private sector, if I have to cover for an absent colleague, I don't get any extra money.

Why should teachers have a monopoly on supervision? If there is a need to supervise pupils of of class time that work should be by people on contract. Many unemployed people would jump at a few hours of low skilled work, every day.
 

anationoceagain

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Why it comes to comes to substitution there should be no extra payment. Like almost everyone in he private sector, if I have to cover for an absent colleague, I don't get any extra money.

Why should teachers have a monopoly on supervision? If there is a need to supervise pupils of of class time that work should be by people on contract. Many unemployed people would jump at a few hours of low skilled work, every day.
But it's not the private sector...invalid comparison. Would the unemployed have garda vetting, know the kids and their issues...be familar with the personality traits of individual kids, including those with special needs?
 

Keith-M

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But it's not the private sector...invalid comparison.

Ever heard of benchmarking? The public got enormous pay increases in return for supposedly modernising work practises in line with he private sector.

Would the unemployed have garda vetting, know the kids and their issues...be familar with the personality traits of individual kids, including those with special needs?
Absolutely, ideally they should be parents of children in the school. These people could also be used to steward state exams.
 

anationoceagain

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Ever heard of benchmarking? The public got enormous pay increases in return for supposedly modernising work practises in line with he private sector.



Absolutely, ideally they should be parents of children in the school. These people could also be used to steward state exams.
You engage in the silly fallacy of presuming a school is a business. You also treat school teachers as a homogenous lot. They're not. There is a massive variation between grades and increment levels...even PRSI payment levels. Many are on very low paid contracts..some amounting to only one or two hours per week....are they supposed to offer unpaid labour on a par with all their other colleagues?

Re parents...not so simple. Who do you engage...do they all have the suitability of working with kids in a school environment. Re exams...what about the logistics...tax /welfare implications? Kneejerk kicks at the public service might appeal to some but the economics and logistics are often overlooked.
 

gatsbygirl20

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Why it comes to comes to substitution there should be no extra payment. Like almost everyone in he private sector, if I have to cover for an absent colleague, I don't get any extra money.

Why should teachers have a monopoly on supervision? If there is a need to supervise pupils of of class time that work should be by people on contract. Many unemployed people would jump at a few hours of low skilled work, every day.
This is not universally true throughout the "private sector". In a private TEFL school for instance (English taught as a foreign language) if a teacher is suddenly absent and another teacher takes the class , he is paid for that

Outsiders could indeed take supervision, but for the smooth running of a school, you need people who know the kids, who know how to react if say, a fight broke out in the play ground

The experience of schools with outsiders has not been great. When teachers refused to do this work as part of industrial action, some private sector workers in the middle of the boom took holidays from their jobs and came into schools to break the strike and earn a few extra bob for themselves (the very people who expect "solidarity" from others now)

In my own school it was almost comical. Big six-foot guy in thinking he was going to get easy money supervising at break time, sending down to the staff room for me or some other petite middle-aged woman to help him because a bunch of tough teenage boys had him on the ropes, and had him reduced almost to tears.

I personally think the union should fold on this and hold the line on more important issues.Teachers did this work unpaid before and would do it again.
 

GDPR

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This is not universally true throughout the "private sector". In a private TEFL school for instance (English taught as a foreign language) if a teacher is suddenly absent and another teacher takes the class , he is paid for that

Outsiders could indeed take supervision, but for the smooth running of a school, you need people who know the kids, who know how to react if say, a fight broke out in the play ground

The experience of schools with outsiders has not been great. When teachers refused to do this work as part of industrial action, some private sector workers in the middle of the boom took holidays from their jobs and came into schools to break the strike and earn a few extra bob for themselves (the very people who expect "solidarity" from others now)

In my own school it was almost comical. Big six-foot guy in thinking he was going to get easy money supervising at break time, sending down to the staff room for me or some other petite middle-aged woman to help him because a bunch of tough teenage boys had him on the ropes, and had him reduced almost to tears.

I personally think the union should fold on this and hold the line on more important issues.Teachers did this work unpaid before and would do it again.
All only shadow boxing at the moment, we haven't even got as far as the phoney war yet.
 

Carl Claudius

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Teachers' €106m supervision pay set to be slashed - Latest News, Education - Independent.ie

The following quotes are from the Comments section (comments are removed after 48 hours):

"TheSilentOne" says:



How could the Department be so stupid? When children attend school, the school authorities are in loco parentis.

"independentman1" says:



It's unlikely that a teacher would be supervising during break-times on a day when he or she has nine classes on the day (3 before 11 a.m. break, 3 between 11 a.m. break and lunchtime, 3 after lunchtime). The teacher probably supervises at lunchtime when he or she has a time when he or she does not has a period before or after lunchtime in which he or she does not have class.

Teachers have periods when they do not have class (other than break-time and lunchtime).

Supervision and substitution are hardly as stressful as teaching itself.

you should give the teaching a go. you seem to be an expert in the field.
 

vision

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You engage in the silly fallacy of presuming a school is a business. You also treat school teachers as a homogenous lot. They're not. There is a massive variation between grades and increment levels...even PRSI payment levels. Many are on very low paid contracts..some amounting to only one or two hours per week....are they supposed to offer unpaid labour on a par with all their other colleagues?

Re parents...not so simple. Who do you engage...do they all have the suitability of working with kids in a school environment. Re exams...what about the logistics...tax /welfare implications? Kneejerk kicks at the public service might appeal to some but the economics and logistics are often overlooked.
Have to agree some parents are not necessarily suited to the role of supervision for a whole host of reasons. Its is easy to knock the system from the outside but there are still reforms required. My children's cousins in England are in primary school from 9 until 4 compared to 9.20 until 3 here and none of this junior and infants finishing at 2 stuff. They seem to cope perfectly well and it might allow additional time to be spent on the core subjects of reading, writing and arithmetic which seem to me be allotted insufficient time to be adequately absorbed or maybe there is just too much going on in the current curriculum.
 

Carl Claudius

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Ever heard of benchmarking? The public got enormous pay increases in return for supposedly modernising work practises in line with he private sector.



Absolutely, ideally they should be parents of children in the school. These people could also be used to steward state exams.
there is the minor issue of Garda vetting. I know some primary schools brought in parents for supervision and did not check them for child abuse.

I think what you are really saying is that any gobbshiiite can be a teacher or work in a school. no training, skills or background checks necessary.
 

Carl Claudius

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Have to agree some parents are not necessarily suited to the role of supervision for a whole host of reasons. Its is easy to knock the system from the outside but there are still reforms required. My children's cousins in England are in primary school from 9 until 4 compared to 9.20 until 3 here and none of this junior and infants finishing at 2 stuff. They seem to cope perfectly well and it might allow additional time to be spent on the core subjects of reading, writing and arithmetic which seem to me be allotted insufficient time to be adequately absorbed or maybe there is just too much going on in the current curriculum.

there is way too much pandering towards people who have opinions on how schools and teachers should be run, yet have never worked in a school.
 

Prester Jim

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All only shadow boxing at the moment, we haven't even got as far as the phoney war yet.
It will happen though, it has been on the cards for years now. Could be worse, could be increased teacher ratio and a few thousand more low paid, temporary teachers unemployed.
 

Carl Claudius

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Didn't know we had any, but I stand here correctable.
In order to appease the likes of Pat kenny and the 'teachers are wasters' lobby new teachers will be getting paid less.

Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Maybe parents should take the kids to football matches and the like. I am sure they would not mind taking time off work to work on a voluntary basis.
 

Prester Jim

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Didn't know we had any, but I stand here correctable.
Facetious or ignorant? With you possibly both...
Not bothered debating the pay of teachers again but suffice it to say; the young teachers, the temporary ones on low hours and maternity moving from school to school every few months or having to drive between several every week to get enough hours to pay the rent, the ones still paying back their student loans, these are the first gone when the teacher pupil ratio is put up.
 

Prester Jim

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GDPR

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In order to appease the likes of Pat kenny and the 'teachers are wasters' lobby new teachers will be getting paid less.

Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Maybe parents should take the kids to football matches and the like. I am sure they would not mind taking time off work to work on a voluntary basis.
In fairness, you could say the same thing about any job, but it's not usually true.

Personally I think teachers do a great and important job, the good and even the average one's at least, but there is the question of affordability and a fair price for the job in the overall context.
 
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