Post 8th Discussion

Buchaill Dana

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At a slight tangent I know but I have heard that the proposal to liberalise divorce laws passed with a vote of 82% in favour?

That's an enormous landslide approval for a proposal in fairness. Also helpful in zeroing in on something that interests me which is the size of the O'Taliban minority in the state.

I've had an idea they are quite a small minority in the state but have traditionally been noisy through communication channels and a privileged position in Irish society. For a long time now I've been suggesting that it could be as low as 3% of the electorate and could be as high as about 15% and possibly wavers between the two markers on the dial depending on the issue.
I think they were vocal, organised and depending on who you got anywhere on the pest to violent scale. Politcians know their onions and the majority might have wanted the 8th gone 20 years ago, but there would still be a loo la throwing piss at your constituency office.

Or in short, Youth Defence having weaker leadership and less numbers allowed the space for politicians do do their jobs.
 


Half Nelson

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crossman

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We didnt vote for the legislation.

More trolling.
I'm glad you admit that as most of the repealers, including ministers, kept telling us their legislation had to go through as that was what the people voted for. As you say, they didn't. They voted to amend the constitution and many, including myself, were naive enough to think the politicians would then take serious account of the problems many yes voters had with the proposed legislation. Most of them were so scared of the issue they wanted it dealt with quickly.
 

MsDaisyC

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You're pro choice and you've just posted the above? Can you please explain your thought process?
You didn't know that it's illegal to kill a baby? Why would you think it's legal to kill a baby?
 

Dame_Enda

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I think as a yes voter we need to acknowledge that the recent case has illustrated that while the pro lifers were wrong on retaining the 8th, they nonetheless had a point when they said a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality can be wrong. Sure its very rare, but thats not much solace for the parents of the baby aborted based on a misdiagnosis that was in the news a few weeks ago. It also exposes problems where the cut off date for unrestricted abortions in the first 12 weeks may clash with a delay in getting second opinions on f.f.a.

On the other hand there are disturbing stories emerging on twitter yesterday about so called crisis pregnancy agencies stringing women along until after the 12 weeks allowed for unlimited abortions. Earlier this year there were reports that US pro life groups were planning such agencies, and were offering training in the US for this. The govt should crack down on such bogus agencies.
 
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petaljam

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I think as a yes voter we need to acknowledge that the recent case has illustrated that while the pro lifers were wrong on retaining the 8th, they nonetheless had a point when they said a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality can be wrong. Sure its very rare, but thats not much solace for the parents of the baby aborted based on a misdiagnosis that was in the news a few weeks ago. It also exposes problems where the cut off date for unrestricted abortions in the first 12 weeks may clash with a delay in getting second opinions on f.f.a.

On the other hand there are disturbing stories emerging on twitter yesterday about so called crisis pregnancy agencies stringing women along until after the 12 weeks allowed for unlimited abortions. Earlier this year there were reports that US pro life groups were planning such agencies, and were offering training in the US for this. The govt should crack down on such bogus agencies.
To be more exact, prolife groups didn't argue so much that FFA diagnoses might be wrong (all diagnoses can be wrong) as that there was no such thing as an FFA at all.

I know someone who had breast cancer surgery on the basis of a punction biopsy - but when the lump itself was removed it was not cancerous. Should breast cancer surgery all be stopped based on that mistake, or does that hospital need to improve its procedures and training?
 

crossman

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To be more exact, prolife groups didn't argue so much that FFA diagnoses might be wrong (all diagnoses can be wrong) as that there was no such thing as an FFA at all.

I know someone who had breast cancer surgery on the basis of a punction biopsy - but when the lump itself was removed it was not cancerous. Should breast cancer surgery all be stopped based on that mistake, or does that hospital need to improve its procedures and training?
You have a point but surely having unnecessary surgery and an unnecessary abortion are miles apart in their impact. Mind you, I speak as a mere man.
 

petaljam

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You have a point but surely having unnecessary surgery and an unnecessary abortion are miles apart in their impact. Mind you, I speak as a mere man.
Well, in this particular case, the unnecessary surgery has left her with permanent loss of strength in her right arm (from the surgeon scraping out the lymph nodes). Since she had young children at the time it's not hard to imagine how much that affected her daily life. (And in France you don't get a massive amount of compensation as I am told happens in Ireland).

Because that is what it is, at that stage - a question of how much compensation the patient should get, and of how best to ensure that such a mistake doesn't happen again.

It's not evidence that the procedure itself should be banned. Any procedure. People can suffer severe consequences from medical negligence after even minor surgery, but that is a reason to be careful about undertaking it, not a reason to ban that surgery for everyone.
 

Pyewacket

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I think as a yes voter we need to acknowledge that the recent case has illustrated that while the pro lifers were wrong on retaining the 8th, they nonetheless had a point when they said a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality can be wrong. Sure its very rare, but thats not much solace for the parents of the baby aborted based on a misdiagnosis that was in the news a few weeks ago. It also exposes problems where the cut off date for unrestricted abortions in the first 12 weeks may clash with a delay in getting second opinions on f.f.a.

On the other hand there are disturbing stories emerging on twitter yesterday about so called crisis pregnancy agencies stringing women along until after the 12 weeks allowed for unlimited abortions. Earlier this year there were reports that US pro life groups were planning such agencies, and were offering training in the US for this. The govt should crack down on such bogus agencies.
As I understand it, there are three stages to the test.

1. A blood test and ultrasound.
2. If there are queries, then a CVS test or amniocentesis is carried out. A CVS test involves placental cells while an amniocentesis is carried out directly on the foetus.
3. The CVS test consists of two samples, one of which is analysed in 48 hours and the other takes two weeks. The quick one can yield false positives. The longer one is 100 per cent accurate. Both must be compared with the ultrasound.

Some people opt for a termination after the 48 hr test results, but the protocol is to inform them the diagnosis is not complete until the two week result is ready.

Obviously, there is always the risk of negligence or incompetence in the administration of the test, but unless you can demonstrate that happened, the test itself is 100 per cent reliable.

The issue as you point out is that a CVS is usually carried out between the 11th and 14th week of pregnancy, which is right up against the Irish time limits for a legal termination.

The work around they are coming up with is a DNA pre-screening for pregnant women over 35 (those most likely to be affected) in order to detect the trisomal genetic abnormality in the very early stages of their pregnancy. This abnormality might indicate an FFA, or not, but it means they can proceed quickly to the CVS.

Basically you have to move like greased lightning. Sleep in the doctor's office, if necessary, once you skip a period.
 


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