Post 8th Discussion



RossN

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Yes, without a doubt because the majority of Irish people saw the 8th amendment as cruel and hypocritical.

Nobody likes abortion, but, as you can see, it's a necessary procedure for thousands of Irish women every year and Irish people voted to end the hypocrisy of outsourcing Irish abortions to the UK.
The entire recent discussion in this thread has been about the 'rare' qualifier in abortion discussions. I posted a link to a Guardian piece about the effort by some elements of the Pro-Choice lobby to 'destigmatise' abortion by challenging the idea that it should ever be thought wrong, and I've linked to the various attacks Leana Wen received after voicing that abortions should be rare. We've even seen two reluctant 'Yes' voters on this thread express discomfort on the current discourse on abortion.

'Nobody likes abortion' isn't even true in a general sense but even leaving aside people who pat themselves on the back for their abortions (or who wish they had been pregnant just so they could have had an abortion) it is clear there is a wide spectrum of views in the Pro-Choice camp over abortion from those who see it as wrong but unstoppable to those that see it as as ethically and emotionally significant as getting a filling at the dentist. During the referendum the 'Yes' campaign benefited enormously from pushing the idea that each and every woman who had an abortion weighed it up in like a philosopher or theologian before coming to a conclusion but as we are seeing now (and reluctant 'Yes' voters are discovering to their discomfort) that simply wasn't true.
 

MsDaisyC

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The entire recent discussion in this thread has been about the 'rare' qualifier in abortion discussions. I posted a link to a Guardian piece about the effort by some elements of the Pro-Choice lobby to 'destigmatise' abortion by challenging the idea that it should ever be thought wrong, and I've linked to the various attacks Leana Wen received after voicing that abortions should be rare. We've even seen two reluctant 'Yes' voters on this thread express discomfort on the current discourse on abortion.

'Nobody likes abortion' isn't even true in a general sense but even leaving aside people who pat themselves on the back for their abortions (or who wish they had been pregnant just so they could have had an abortion) it is clear there is a wide spectrum of views in the Pro-Choice camp over abortion from those who see it as wrong but unstoppable to those that see it as as ethically and emotionally significant as getting a filling at the dentist. During the referendum the 'Yes' campaign benefited enormously from pushing the idea that each and every woman who had an abortion weighed it up in like a philosopher or theologian before coming to a conclusion but as we are seeing now (and reluctant 'Yes' voters are discovering to their discomfort) that simply wasn't true.
How do you know that each of the women and girls who had an abortion didn't give it days and weeks of thought?
 

RossN

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How do you know that each of the women and girls who had an abortion didn't give it days and weeks of thought?
I don't anymore than you know that they did. The difference between us is that I'm not using the idea that all women take abortion equally seriously as a handy propaganda tool.
 

Brenny

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Sub 12 weeks gestation is "very young"? 😬

Why aren't the "very young" acknowledged from conception? A conception certificate, child benefit paid from the date on the conception? Look, instead of making up stupid stuff, put all that energy into campaigning for the actual young who've evacuated the vaginal canal to get proper access to healthcare, education, food, accommodation, etc
I agree with the essence of what you're saying. Overall I think that high abortions level are a symptom of a stressed society. In the natural world female mammals naturally abort during times of harsh environmental conditions. Our young people are encouraged to attain a degree and then maybe a postgraduate qualification. They then often have to travel abroad to try gain experience in their chosen field. When they return home they encounter a society that values property as a prerequisite to adulthood. They then have to try get money together for a deposit and try get somewhere they can raise children. If pregnancy occurs at any point before their entry to adulthood then it could ruin everything, but if you wait until you are an adult (career, partner, property) you may be at the point where your body is no longer able to bear children.

Young people are just made to walk too narrow a tight-robe. Instead of complaining about abortion, which I dislike but can countenance, we should look at the overall societal and economic conditions that underlie the high abortion rates.
 

MsDaisyC

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I don't anymore than you know that they did. The difference between us is that I'm not using the idea that all women take abortion equally seriously as a handy propaganda tool.
Ah, the "prolife" notion that women are fickle sluts. No wonder nobody respects you.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Never mind. What with 6,000 odd sure the odds of an 'abortion survivor' increase dramatically, like they have in America. One of these days there'll be a massive kerfuffle somewhere and one of the babbeh will have done an Indiana Jones, grabbed a scalpel from the tray and threatened everyone before leaping dramatically to the top of the cupboard, from there to the light fixture and a swing and out through the window and into the treeline.

I'm fascinated by these 'abortion survivors' and their tales of escape. Although it is never quite clear exactly what happened because you can't really survive an abortion by definition.

If you are still alive then by definition you haven't been the subject of an abortion. I'm fairly sure there's more than one Nurse Noel circling the crowd with their cap held out for coins.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I agree with the essence of what you're saying. Overall I think that high abortions level are a symptom of a stressed society. In the natural world female mammals naturally abort during times of harsh environmental conditions. Our young people are encouraged to attain a degree and then maybe a postgraduate qualification. They then often have to travel abroad to try gain experience in their chosen field. When they return home they encounter a society that values property as a prerequisite to adulthood. They then have to try get money together for a deposit and try get somewhere they can raise children. If pregnancy occurs at any point before their entry to adulthood then it could ruin everything, but if you wait until you are an adult (career, partner, property) you may be at the point where your body is no longer able to bear children.

Young people are just made to walk too narrow a tight-robe. Instead of complaining about abortion, which I dislike but can countenance, we should look at the overall societal and economic conditions that underlie the high abortion rates.
I think that is probably the most sensible reading of the situation where the birth rate is falling that I've read. It is primarily economic. If you want loads more Irish kids then it is going to have to be a better proposition than two people exhausted from both working to meet the mortgage and all else that comes with it, getting wrecked again by the cost of childcare during the day on top of the other expenses, getting physically wrecked by the stress of wondering whether the kids are best served by both parents being out working and yet having no financial way to do anything different.
 

RossN

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Apr 21, 2004
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177
Ah, the "prolife" notion that women are fickle sluts. No wonder nobody respects you.
Not sure quite how we leapt from 'some women don't see abortions as morally problematic' (which is clearly true and has been repeatedly stated by Pro-Choice women) to 'women are fickle sluts' but I suppose it's a classic part of the Pro-Choice campaign that every woman must feel and think exactly the same way about abortion.
 

Buchaill Dana

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I'm in the same boat as you. I clung to the promise of 'rare' when i voted yes but that seems to be forgotten now. A huge chunk of ff and fg were reluctant Yes voters. Why aren't they speaking up now?

And who the hell are these people who are celebrating the high numbers? What the hell motivates them?
High numbers? What?

Is the same, if not less, than your Love Boats regieme. Only now its done at home, medically and not surgically
 

Buchaill Dana

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The entire recent discussion in this thread has been about the 'rare' qualifier in abortion discussions. I posted a link to a Guardian piece about the effort by some elements of the Pro-Choice lobby to 'destigmatise' abortion by challenging the idea that it should ever be thought wrong, and I've linked to the various attacks Leana Wen received after voicing that abortions should be rare. We've even seen two reluctant 'Yes' voters on this thread express discomfort on the current discourse on abortion.

'Nobody likes abortion' isn't even true in a general sense but even leaving aside people who pat themselves on the back for their abortions (or who wish they had been pregnant just so they could have had an abortion) it is clear there is a wide spectrum of views in the Pro-Choice camp over abortion from those who see it as wrong but unstoppable to those that see it as as ethically and emotionally significant as getting a filling at the dentist. During the referendum the 'Yes' campaign benefited enormously from pushing the idea that each and every woman who had an abortion weighed it up in like a philosopher or theologian before coming to a conclusion but as we are seeing now (and reluctant 'Yes' voters are discovering to their discomfort) that simply wasn't true.
That shite was rejected at the ballot box. What do you think recycling it 2 years later will achieve?
 

Brenny

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High numbers? What?

Is the same, if not less, than your Love Boats regieme. Only now its done at home, medically and not surgically
Is it a reduction? What were the numbers 'taking the boat' pre-Repeal?
 

petaljam

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They are high when we were told it would be rare but anyway theres no going back now.
Indeed. Such a clear majority is not going to be overturned any time soon, so if people really want to reduce numbers - as opposed to complaining about them - then they would do better diverting their energy and their money into support for parents to make larger families less of a financial burden on a couple.

Do you have any idea why prolife organisations seem entirely uninterested in getting involved with any of that?


Is it a reduction? What were the numbers 'taking the boat' pre-Repeal?
Going by data from other countries, places that actually have data, rather than educated guesses, "taking the boat" had probably become a minority of abortions even before the law changed.
 

MsDaisyC

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Not sure quite how we leapt from 'some women don't see abortions as morally problematic' (which is clearly true and has been repeatedly stated by Pro-Choice women) to 'women are fickle sluts' but I suppose it's a classic part of the Pro-Choice campaign that every woman must feel and think exactly the same way about abortion.
Nah. It's what antichoice think about women and girls. The 8th was installed because women couldn't be trusted and needed to be controlled. It took 35 years but we're finally rid of it.
 

petaljam

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Because 6000+ certainly isn't rare as we were told it would be.
My memory of the debate was that anti repealers firmly refused to believe the claim by pro repeal that the rates were significantly higher than just the number declared by the UK NHS. The abortion pill being a big part of that extra number, but not the only part. Did you miss all that?
 

Buchaill Dana

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Because 6000+ certainly isn't rare as we were told it would be.
Not my recollection of the debate.

I remember 4,000 surgical procedures overseas and an unknown amount of unregistered medical ones online.
 


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