Post 8th Discussion

RossN

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That shite was rejected at the ballot box. What do you think recycling it 2 years later will achieve?
'That shite' is being spouted by Pro-Choice activists unless you think people like Lena Dunham are in the pay of Pro-Life organisations as false flag operatives.

Nah. It's what antichoice think about women and girls. The 8th was installed because women couldn't be trusted and needed to be controlled. It took 35 years but we're finally rid of it.
As usual with Pro-Choice types I see you take refuge in slurs when you can't actually defend your own comments.

Unlike Pro-Choice activists I think women are individuals rather than some hive mind which has identical, propaganda-friendly attitudes towards abortion.
 


MsDaisyC

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'That shite' is being spouted by Pro-Choice activists unless you think people like Lena Dunham are in the pay of Pro-Life organisations as false flag operatives.



As usual with Pro-Choice types I see you take refuge in slurs when you can't actually defend your own comments.

Unlike Pro-Choice activists I think women are individuals rather than some hive mind which has identical, propaganda-friendly attitudes towards abortion.
Who is Lena Dunham?
Most people who are pro choice don't think stopping a woman or girl doing something because some people don't like it isn't a good enough reason. Most people couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of so called "prolife" anti abortion policies. The 8th didn't stop Irish abortions, it just exported them.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Who is Lena Dunham?
Most people who are pro choice don't think stopping a woman or girl doing somethingbecause some people don't like it isn't a good enough reason. Most people couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of so called "prolife" anti abortion policies. The 8th didn't stop Irish abortions, it just exported them.
It's definitely a new twist. And as you say nothing to do with thr topic in hand.

Anti abortion because I trust women
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
'That shite' is being spouted by Pro-Choice activists unless you think people like Lena Dunham are in the pay of Pro-Life organisations as false flag operatives.



As usual with Pro-Choice types I see you take refuge in slurs when you can't actually defend your own comments.

Unlike Pro-Choice activists I think women are individuals rather than some hive mind which has identical, propaganda-friendly attitudes towards abortion.
Pity we didn't hear from some of these individuals during the 8th referendum repeal campaign. Because I saw Mattie McGrath, Ronan Mullen from the pocket-borough of Maynooth and a man with a beard from the United States. Didn't look like any of of the individual women you refer to were trusted enough on that side of the campaign to speak when there was a man there to do it for them. Not unusually. Or are you referring to the 'special place' women have in their favourite organisation? IE two steps behind and with mouth closed. Just like with the fanatical Muslims.

Or it could be that we heard from them in the actual vote.
 

RossN

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Who is Lena Dunham?
Most people who are pro choice don't think stopping a woman or girl doing something because some people don't like it isn't a good enough reason. Most people couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of so called "prolife" anti abortion policies. The 8th didn't stop Irish abortions, it just exported them.
Dunham is a feminist American TV writer. I brought her up because she's probably the best known 'abortion as a good thing in and of itself' voice, though not the only one.

It's definitely a new twist. And as you say nothing to do with thr topic in hand.

Anti abortion because I trust women
The topic at hand was the debate over the dropping of the 'rare' from 'safe, legal and rare' and two different 'Yes' voters in this thread so far have expressed discomfort at the the attitude of some in the Pro-Choice camp.

Pity we didn't hear from some of these individuals during the 8th referendum repeal campaign. Because I saw Mattie McGrath, Ronan Mullen from the pocket-borough of Maynooth and a man with a beard from the United States. Didn't look like any of of the individual women you refer to were trusted enough on that side of the campaign to speak when there was a man there to do it for them. Not unusually. Or are you referring to the 'special place' women have in their favourite organisation? IE two steps behind and with mouth closed. Just like with the fanatical Muslims.

Or it could be that we heard from them in the actual vote.
I don't think I referred to any Pro-Life individuals at all. The people I have mentioned/linked are Pro-Choice Americans Lena Dunham, Leana Wen and Jessica Valenti. Dunham and Valenti are outright Pro-Abortion (as in 'how dare you see this as wrong') while Wen has the same position Varadkar has that abortion should be legal, safe and rare. She's been attacked constantly by the Pro-Choice side because she so much as suggested people might not like abortion.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I am sure there will always be people who don't like abortion. The solution is for them not to have one.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
These are people who, theoretically, are on your side.
I don't have a side as it isn't a football match. Some who are dead set against abortion and attended all the vigils and what-have-you, voted a solid 'no' would change their minds very quickly on the matter should their 15 year old report in pregnant.
 

RossN

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I don't have a side as it isn't a football match. Some who are dead set against abortion and attended all the vigils and what-have-you, voted a solid 'no' would change their minds very quickly on the matter should their 15 year old report in pregnant.
Strange how the 'trust women' side always seems to wallow in the mire when it comes to other people.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Dunham is a feminist American TV writer. I brought her up because she's probably the best known 'abortion as a good thing in and of itself' voice, though not the only one.



The topic at hand was the debate over the dropping of the 'rare' from 'safe, legal and rare' and two different 'Yes' voters in this thread so far have expressed discomfort at the the attitude of some in the Pro-Choice camp.



I don't think I referred to any Pro-Life individuals at all. The people I have mentioned/linked are Pro-Choice Americans Lena Dunham, Leana Wen and Jessica Valenti. Dunham and Valenti are outright Pro-Abortion (as in 'how dare you see this as wrong') while Wen has the same position Varadkar has that abortion should be legal, safe and rare. She's been attacked constantly by the Pro-Choice side because she so much as suggested people might not like abortion.
Sniff sniff.

Whats the weather like in the states?
 

petaljam

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Dunham is a feminist American TV writer. I brought her up because she's probably the best known 'abortion as a good thing in and of itself' voice, though not the only one.



The topic at hand was the debate over the dropping of the 'rare' from 'safe, legal and rare' and two different 'Yes' voters in this thread so far have expressed discomfort at the the attitude of some in the Pro-Choice camp.



I don't think I referred to any Pro-Life individuals at all. The people I have mentioned/linked are Pro-Choice Americans Lena Dunham, Leana Wen and Jessica Valenti. Dunham and Valenti are outright Pro-Abortion (as in 'how dare you see this as wrong') while Wen has the same position Varadkar has that abortion should be legal, safe and rare. She's been attacked constantly by the Pro-Choice side because she so much as suggested people might not like abortion.
Completely irrelevant to Ireland then, where apart from Leo Varadkar apparently once getting things mixed up with David Steele's description of UK law back in the 60s, there was no attempt to put any restrictions on women's rights to terminate early pregnancies at all.

The U.K. required two doctors to authorise a woman to terminate at any stage, for that reason. Ireland (and most other European countries) took a different approach - no restrictions on first trimester terminations. So, no promises to make it rare at all.

But there's nothing stopping you from trying to ensure that women don't need to have abortions for economic reasons - better child care etc. Doesn't that interest you at all? Or does that sound too much like hard work to you?
 

Buchaill Dana

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Completely irrelevant to Ireland then, where apart from Leo Varadkar apparently once getting things mixed up with David Steele's description of UK law back in the 60s, there was no attempt to put any restrictions on women's rights to terminate early pregnancies at all.

The U.K. required two doctors to authorise a woman to terminate at any stage, for that reason. Ireland (and most other European countries) took a different approach - no restrictions on first trimester terminations. So, no promises to make it rare at all.

But there's nothing stopping you from trying to ensure that women don't need to have abortions for economic reasons - better child care etc. Doesn't that interest you at all? Or does that sound too much like hard work to you?
No, we 'like' abortion because of an American actress.

Another import who has no idea what actually was voted on
 

MsDaisyC

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No, we 'like' abortion because of an American actress.

Another import who has no idea what actually was voted on
I don't like abortion the same way as I don't like chemotherapy. I'd rather not have to have it, but I will if I need it.
 

Buchaill Dana

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I don't like abortion the same way as I don't like chemotherapy. I'd rather not have to have it, but I will if I need it.
Exactly.

The notion that pro choicers 'like' abortion is so offensive its hard to begin.

That said, they have learned nothing and retain a tenious grasp on reality. Means they are generations away from trying to overturn anything.

SPUC were mad and bad, but they were at least coherent
 

Brenny

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I am sure there will always be people who don't like abortion. The solution is for them not to have one.
Sorry, this logic is flawed. It's like saying 'if you don't like murder then don't murder anybody.' Murder is wrong because it affects people, they get killed.

Abortion? I just see a thousand shades of grey. It's wrong to kill a newborn, less wrong to terminate a 9 month pregnancy, less wrong to terminate a 6 month pregnancy and so forth. It's morally ambiguous but should be seen as symptom of a stressed society. Have a look at the countries with the highest abortion rates in the world, what are those countries like?

I don't like abortion the same way as I don't like chemotherapy. I'd rather not have to have it, but I will if I need it.
From a moral perspective this makes much more sense. We shouldn't use the word 'stigma' but there should be a moral imperative to see abortion as something you avail of if you need it.
 

Brenny

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It's a bit of an accident of history that abortion was considered to be a left-wing issue in the west.

If we look around the world at countries with high abortion levels, it's difficult to link it to the left vs right western paradigm.

I worked with a Russian woman who had four abortions. She was also flagrantly anti-homosexual, 'I don't like the gays, what's the big deal' and thought that Israel, where she had lived for a while, should be given military aid to take over surrounding Muslim countries.

If a country has a high abortion rate, this isn't an indicator that feminism is working in that country.

CountryAbortion Rate Population 2020
Russia53.7145,934,462
Vietnam35.297,338,579
Kazakhstan3518,776,707
Estonia33.31,326,535
Belarus31.79,449,323
Romania27.819,237,691
Ukraine27.543,733,762
Latvia27.31,886,198
Cuba24.811,326,616
China24.21,439,323,776
Hungary23.49,660,351
Mongolia21.73,278,290
Seychelles21.698,347
Bulgaria21.36,948,445
United States20.8331,002,651
Sweden20.210,099,265
New Zealand19.74,822,233
Australia19.725,499,884
Georgia19.13,989,167
Macedonia18.42,083,374
Moldova17.64,033,963
United Kingdom1767,886,011
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Sorry, this logic is flawed. It's like saying 'if you don't like murder then don't murder anybody.' Murder is wrong because it affects people, they get killed.

Abortion? I just see a thousand shades of grey. It's wrong to kill a newborn, less wrong to terminate a 9 month pregnancy, less wrong to terminate a 6 month pregnancy and so forth. It's morally ambiguous but should be seen as symptom of a stressed society. Have a look at the countries with the highest abortion rates in the world, what are those countries like?


From a moral perspective this makes much more sense. We shouldn't use the word 'stigma' but there should be a moral imperative to see abortion as something you avail of if you need it.
The notion that some women were using abortion as a form of contraception and would do on a large scale if legalised in Ireland was being pushed as a notion by the anti-choice brigade.

On cost grounds alone having an abortion instead of taking the pill would probably cost a few thousand a year which would defeat the purpose of contraception in the first place.

I liked the medicos who advocated for a 'yes' vote and their phrase 'as early as possible and as late as necessary' I think it was. You can pretend all you like that a fertilised egg is an insta-person but the law doesn't agree with that and I certainly wouldn't agree with it any more than I think a corporation should have the same rights as a sentient human being.
 

MsDaisyC

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Sorry, this logic is flawed. It's like saying 'if you don't like murder then don't murder anybody.' Murder is wrong because it affects people, they get killed.

Abortion? I just see a thousand shades of grey. It's wrong to kill a newborn, less wrong to terminate a 9 month pregnancy, less wrong to terminate a 6 month pregnancy and so forth. It's morally ambiguous but should be seen as symptom of a stressed society. Have a look at the countries with the highest abortion rates in the world, what are those countries like?


From a moral perspective this makes much more sense. We shouldn't use the word 'stigma' but there should be a moral imperative to see abortion as something you avail of if you need it.
Every woman and girl who chose to have an abortion did so because she felt she needed it and that's all that matters. You don't get to decide if their need passes some kind of moral test.
 

Brenny

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Every woman and girl who chose to have an abortion did so because she felt she needed it and that's all that matters. You don't get to decide if their need passes some kind of moral test.
To suggest that the individual is entirely independent of society is palpably wrong. Far more female fetuses are aborted in china and india than male fetuses. This is because she felt she needed it?
 


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