Post-birth Abortions

scolairebocht

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This OP was inspired by reading on another thread where some pro-choice advocate was laughing at the extreme comments of the other side, saying that they looked upon abortion as if it was like taking a baseball bat to a new born child!

But actually this subject does raise serious issues that are not as far from that image as one would hope? What pro-choice activists will at some time have to address is the reality behind post-birth abortions, sometimes called botched abortions, where the child is born alive and then has to be killed or left to die. It is true that these are by no means most cases of abortion, but if its alright to have an abortion debate in Ireland talking endlessly about the tiny number of extreme hard cases, rape, incest etc, then I am afraid it is alright to talk partial birth abortions, which are not all that rare.

Its a major issue that we would need to have at least guidelines on, for example in a newspaper report on this in the Evening Standard in London they talk about the UK guidelines:
"Guidance from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends babies over 22 weeks which survive abortion should have their hearts stopped by lethal injection but this can be a difficult procedure for doctors.
Professor Stuart Campbell, an eminent obstetrician whose 3D scan images of babies "walking in the womb" have fuelled the debate over late abortions, said: "It is a distressing situation when these babies are being born alive."
( https://www.standard.co.uk/news/66-babies-in-a-year-left-to-die-after-nhs-abortions-that-go-wrong-6690810.html .)
The difference between post-birth abortion and infanticide is hard to fathom when you consider those UK guidelines. Anyway whats noticeable about this issue is the way that it tweaks the conscience of people that, for some reason, previously refused to recognise the humanity of the unborn child, more from the above newspaper report for example:
"A baby born alive after a botched abortion at 21 weeks is among the worst cases reported in the UK. The little girl, who had Down's Syndrome, lived for three hours after being delivered. Her parents claim they were "coerced" into a termination by staff at Macclesfield District General Hospital. They were later told that their baby had not "really" been alive, even though she was clearly breathing. The couple, who do not wish to be named, already had a toddler, a teenager and a 12-year-old with learning difficulties and felt unable to cope with another special needs child. The 44-year-old mother said: "If I had been given any idea that the baby would be born alive after an abortion I would never have gone through with it. They coerced me.

"I have seen how society treats children with disabilities and it frightened me to bring another special needs child into the world, but somehow we would have coped with it."Two days before the abortion in March 2004, the woman was given tablets which she was told would kill the baby in the womb. But to their distress the baby was still clearly moving. They went back to hospital and were assured that the baby would die during labour. Soon after birth, however, both parents saw it gasping for air."
It really is an issue that comes up, as in this account of an Irish nurse working in Australia relates (thanks to Ger18 for this link btw):
[video=youtube;nf8WyssSabY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf8WyssSabY[/video]

Here are some abortion clinic workers in the U.S. talking about this heart warming subject:
[video=youtube;9fhyJItGPko]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fhyJItGPko[/video]

Remember the proposal before us is for Ireland to have one of the most liberal abortion regimes in the world so there is no point is people denying this, the above will be the reality - albeit in some extreme cases - in Irish hospitals if this goes through.
 
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damus

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Is Caren Mat trained? How does it come about that a nurse with no mat training on record is left alone on a unit where women are giving birth, while the only other nurse heads off on her lunch break? Answers on a postcard to.....
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I suppose there should be a rallying call for the pro-choice side which is the opposite of the rallying call for the O'Taliban.

Although 'Off Both' could seem a bit harsh and misleading.
 

Karloff

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I wonder what kind of person could perform an abortion in which the baby is born still alive, and then go back and do another one.
 

gleeful

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In the US they have post birth abortion for kids in school. They call the policy NRA.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I wonder how many of the women claiming to have had an abortion and now regretting it are actually O'Taliban in disguise.
 

ger12

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Is Caren Mat trained? How does it come about that a nurse with no mat training on record is left alone on a unit where women are giving birth, while the only other nurse heads off on her lunch break? Answers on a postcard to.....
She said she wasn't directly looking after that patient. Perhaps she was looking after gynae surgical patients. You know as an agency nurse you could land anywhere in a hospital.
 

ger12

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I wonder what kind of person could perform an abortion in which the baby is born still alive, and then go back and do another one.
The US passed a law earlier this year to obligate healthcare workers to provide care to babies born alive during abortions.

Over 150 Democrats actually voted against it.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Perhaps because they know it is a trojan horse pile of religious shyte.
 

damus

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She said she wasn't directly looking after that patient. Perhaps she was looking after gynae surgical patients. You know as an agency nurse you could land anywhere in a hospital.
So a general nurse with no mat qualifications whatsoever can end up working in a mat hospital and on a labour ward? She said that she were the only nurse left on a unit when the other one went on break - bit wreckless there - don't you think Ger. Then again, I suppose a general nurse could end up accepting a job in a forensic MH hospital if you didn't give a damn about your license to practice either.
 

damus

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Btw, is the govt planning to introduce post-birth abortions? Is Ireland planning to re-write the civil and legal protections that are afforded all children who are born alive?
 

GDPR

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Oh another hysterical OP.

By May they will be arguing there is an implicit right in the Constitution to private cannibal parties, if the 8th is repealed....
 

scolairebocht

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But whats hysterical about it, this happens! Its part of the abortion debate all across the world, where abortion is liberalised, as you can see from that U.S. vote for example. It has to be addressed by the pro-choice side, not dismissed as if it could not or is not happening in these countries.
 

talkingshop

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The US passed a law earlier this year to obligate healthcare workers to provide care to babies born alive during abortions.

Over 150 Democrats actually voted against it.
That is unbelievable.
 

GDPR

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But whats hysterical about it, this happens! Its part of the abortion debate all across the world, where abortion is liberalised, as you can see from that U.S. vote for example. It has to be addressed by the pro-choice side, not dismissed as if it could not or is not happening in these countries.
What about in countries where abortion is not legal?

That is a truly scary medical situation, when you acquaint yourself with the numbers who die from backstreet abortions.

Ireland was always lucky because the British NHS would cope.
 

Karloff

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The little girl, who had Down's Syndrome, lived for three hours after being delivered. Her parents claim they were "coerced" into a termination by staff at Macclesfield District General Hospital. They were later told that their baby had not "really" been alive, even though she was clearly breathing..
There will be an increased stigma in Ireland for those who choose not to abort their Downs Syndrome children if the 8th is repealed.

Btw, is the govt planning to introduce post-birth abortions? Is Ireland planning to re-write the civil and legal protections that are afforded all children who are born alive?
I believe they are planning on taking over all power to legislate on abortion and i also believe there is no functioning opposition in Ireland on this matter. So there will be nothing to stop them if they did. The 8th is the only barrier that guarantees such a thing does not come about.
 

scolairebocht

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(Replying to Eagle) But we have heard all that debate ad infinitum already, its why you have abortion on demand in the UK because David Steel was conned - as he says himself - into thinking he was just addressing that issue when he introduced the measures he did.

But this issue of post-birth abortion has not been gone into. I think it highlights the fact that now the pro-choice side have put their cards on the table asking for this massively liberal abortion regime they will have to address what that kind of culture looks like. You have it in the kind of clinics the US workers were talking about in the video and it is not so attractive is it!
 


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