Pre-legislative scrutiny

lostexpectation

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Hmm. Let's have a look at a piece of regulation that is designed to prevent a repeat of Ireland's disastrous property bubble - the 20% deposit rule recently drawn up by the CBI. And let's look at the government's reaction to it...which was to oppose it.

Could the government have a vested interest in a property bubble? Why, yes, of course they could - oh, sure, they won't call it a bubble, won't even think its a bubble, it's sound fundamentals raising property prices to the benefit of mainstream property-owning voters. That's exactly what happened last time, of course, but this time it's different. Which, admittedly, is what they said last time too.
isn't one half of the point of political reform to take certain things out of the hands of government, has that happened or not in this case?
 


lostexpectation

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is there any kind requirement for private members bill to have pre-legislative scrutiny the SO changes at the time
(u) Pre-legislative consideration

The insertion of the following new Standing Order before Standing Order 124:

'123A. Prior to its presentation or introduction to the Dáil, the general scheme or draft heads of a Bill shall, save in exceptional circumstances [see also S.O. 125], be given by a member of the Government or Minister of State to the Committee empowered under Standing Order 82A to consider Bills published by the member of the Government.';
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2013-10-17a.402&s=pre-legislative+scrutiny#g507

standing order were changed to require it in 2013 but that only lasted till the end of the Dail but the 2nd Dail reform report says it it being brought back in in September http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Li...garding_changes_to_Standing_Orders_174253.pdf

10. PRE-LEGISLATIVE CONSIDERATION
With effect from 1st September 2016, the adoption of the following new Standing Order:
“146A. Prior to its presentation or introduction to the Dáil, the general scheme or draft heads of a Bill shall (save in exceptional circumstances and by permission of the Business Committee [see also S.O. 148]), be given by a member of the Government or Minister of State to the Committee empowered under Standing Order 84A to consider Bills published by the member of the Government. The general scheme or draft heads of the Bill shall be considered by the Committee: Provided that the Committee may decide in relation to a particular Bill that such consideration is not necessary, and in such cases, need not consider the general scheme or draft heads.”
so why should gov bills be subject to -pre-legislative scrutiny and not private members (or opposition) bills
 
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Dame_Enda

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We should maybe have a petition system like that of the UK where a large enough petition gets considered to be debated in the Dail.
 

lostexpectation

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We should maybe have a petition system like that of the UK where a large enough petition gets considered to be debated in the Dail.
not sure what that has to do with pre-legislative scrutiny but we had a petition committee, no petitions get discussed in the Dail just bounced between dept and committees, it supposedly being brought back, not a lot came from the committee
 

lostexpectation

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the new proposed standing orders rules re private members bill and (pre-) legislative scrutiny (and ECB consultation) http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/thisweek/motions-2016/m180716.pdf
‘141. (1) Should a private member’s Bill pass its second reading, it shall be referred to the relevant Select Committee appointed pursuant to Standing Order 84A

(2) Select Committees to which private members’ Bills are referred shall undertake detailed scrutiny of the provisions of such Bills, having regard to guidelines agreed by the Working Group of Committee Chairmen, and shall report thereon to the Dáil prior to Committee Stage consideration: Provided that the Committee may decide in relation to a particular Bill that detailed scrutiny is not necessary.’; and
(b) by the adoption of the following new Standing Order:
‘146A. Prior to its presentation or introduction to the Dáil, the general scheme or draft heads of a Bill shall (save in exceptional circumstances and by permission of the Business Committee [see also S.O. 148]), be given by a member of the Government or Minister of State to the Committee empowered under Standing Order 84A to consider Bills published by the member of the Government. The general scheme or draft heads of the Bill shall be considered by the Committee, having regard to guidelines agreed by the Working Group of Committee Chairmen: Provided that the Committee may decide in relation to a particular Bill that such consideration is not necessary, and in such cases, need not consider the general scheme or draft heads.’.”
what are the guidelines agreed by the Working Group of Committee Chairmen?
 
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Ardillaun

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On any issue of this sort, I would like to know what other countries do (both (a) Westminster-based and (b) other) and what might be considered best practice.
 

lostexpectation

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Ardillaun

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Excellent link esp. the comparative stuff. Sounds like a great thing to do. Interesting how the issue of good parliamentary committees comes up all over the place, the European countries that have them not really needing PLS so much. BTW no mention of Canada in there that I could find. Likewise, many Westminster-model analyses in Canada and Australasia omit Ireland.

We just need a few serving politicians who are highly motivated to improve the system. Even in Canada, they are few and far between.
 
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lostexpectation

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trying to find out why "pre-legislative scrutiny" occurs at committee stage for private members bills https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...-be-blocked-in-future-taoiseach-34727419.html
With the new Fine Gael-led government set to lose its first Dáil vote tonight, Mr Kenny said a new committee will be set up next week to scrutinise motions before they are voted on by TDs.
Dáil bills which contradict State policy could be blocked under new reforms


https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...ould-be-blocked-under-new-reforms-736047.html

"We are now in a political situation here where there is a motion before the house so what the Fine Gael party have done in the changes that we are bringing about in the way the Dáil does its business is that any private members bill from next week, it will be mandatory for all those bills to go to the pre-legislative scrutiny facility committee that doesn't happen in this particular week so the vote has been placed," Mr Kenny said.
so bills do go off for scrutiny in committees and get delayed in that process anyway
"If it is defeated, the vote is not on the bill, so the bill goes off to the committee to be dealt with at committee stage and everyone will have their opportunity to tease out what it is they want to say about it and about the implications.
huh?

why does scrutiny of private members bills only take place after first and second stage, TDs get to dine out in media with crappy bills for months with no scrutiny of the details from media or other opposition TDs,

there should be pre-legislative scrutiny at committe stage for PMBs it, it would hurry them up being slower.
 
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lostexpectation

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lostexpectation

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Report of the Sub-Committee on Dáil Reform : memorandum of understanding between the Government and Dáil Éireann on private members' bills : adopted by the sub-committee on 5 December 2018 / Sub-Committee on Dáil Reform (2018.) http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Li...e_MOU_as_agreed_on_5_December_2018_095149.pdf
all PMBs will have explanatory memos, business committee will decide if PLS not needed, rather then each committee


still no actual pre-legislative scrutiny of private members bills in Dail, so opposition TDs can still boast in the media about flimsy bills being "passed" in the Dail. Previous Dail Reform report sought pre-legislative scrutiny not pre-committee scrutiny


the sub-Committee are of the view that the extension of pre-legislative scrutiny (“pre-leg”) to all Bills would assist in improving the standard of the final text. However, the sub-Committee recognises that it will only be possible when the OPLA has sufficient resources.

pre-legislative scrutiny will be extended to non-Government Bills (when sufficient resources are in place in the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Advisor), which will increase the possibility of those Bills being enacted;
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oirea...final-report-sub-committee-dail-reform_en.pdf
 
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lostexpectation

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