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President's word on bullying/gay people & suicide in Ire


The Earl of Desmond

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I seems President McAleese made a very worthwhile speech on bullying in Ireland the issue of binge drinking and drug taking.

Will it make any difference?
 

nawbut

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no

Not to me. I havent heard one word of it and I dont know anything about it.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwojqlidmh/

I saw it on breakingnews.ie - seems she spoke a lot of sense - I'm guessing either someone in her family has come out as gay or she knows some gay people and has discussed it as the speech was obviously written by a gay person rather than someone who thinks they understand what gay people go through as they come to terms with being gay as opposed to those who think you just decide to be gay.

I have to say she impressed me - which makes me wonder why the new gay centre place in Dublin was opened by Ahern who has done absolutely nothing for gay people and not be the President?
 

returning officer

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I have to say she impressed me - which makes me wonder why the new gay centre place in Dublin was opened by Ahern who has done absolutely nothing for gay people and not be the President?

Nobody would claim that Ahern is pro-gay or maybe not even gay-friendly, but the following where brought in on his watch (leaving aside the European dimension, the British have only just got around to the equality in goods and services - some 7 years after us). Are these nothing?

The Employment Equality Act in 1998 to outlaw discrimination on nine distinct grounds.
The Equal Status Act 2000 provided protection for the first time against discrimination outside the field of employment.

The Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 outlaws discrimination in occupational pensions on the same nine grounds, including sexual orientation.

The Health Insurance (Amendment) 2001 prohibits the varying, on the grounds of age, sex or sexual orientation, of amounts payable by insurers in respect of the treatment and care of insured persons.

Our Parental Leave (Amendment) Act 2006 extended the existing force majeure leave entitlement, in section 13 of the Parental Leave Act 1998, to employees in respect of persons, including same-sex partners, with whom they have a relationship of domestic dependency.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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They were brought in by the EU so whether he wanted to or not he would have had to include sexual orientation at some point.

Ahern is not a crusader or policy driven leader on any issue it is safe to say
 

Insider2007

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returning officer said:
I have to say she impressed me - which makes me wonder why the new gay centre place in Dublin was opened by Ahern who has done absolutely nothing for gay people and not be the President?

Nobody would claim that Ahern is pro-gay or maybe not even gay-friendly, but the following where brought in on his watch (leaving aside the European dimension, the British have only just got around to the equality in goods and services - some 7 years after us). Are these nothing?

The Employment Equality Act in 1998 to outlaw discrimination on nine distinct grounds.
The Equal Status Act 2000 provided protection for the first time against discrimination outside the field of employment.

The Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 outlaws discrimination in occupational pensions on the same nine grounds, including sexual orientation.

The Health Insurance (Amendment) 2001 prohibits the varying, on the grounds of age, sex or sexual orientation, of amounts payable by insurers in respect of the treatment and care of insured persons.

Our Parental Leave (Amendment) Act 2006 extended the existing force majeure leave entitlement, in section 13 of the Parental Leave Act 1998, to employees in respect of persons, including same-sex partners, with whom they have a relationship of domestic dependency.
The President had opened the original headquarters of Outhouse in South William Street (I think that was the location, just down the road from the Powerscourt Townhouse Centre). Mary made a powerful speech at the function. Those of us there were quite moved by it.

Mary McAleese has a powerful commitment to gay rights, thanks to personal experience; a close family member is gay.

She was one of the founders of the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, alongside David Norris. Ironically when Mary had to step back from it due to other commitments, she was replaced by Mary Robinson, who she then succeeded as president. (The overlapping of both women's careers was amazing.)

Given that the taoiseach has the power to introduce legislation, it was understandable to invite him and use the opportunity to lobby him.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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But she has done more for gay equality than Bertie ever did so why not ask her to do the honours.

He has had the power to introduce legilsation for 10 years and has done nothing what makes you think he will bother now when he is in the final bit of his time in office and you can sure as well bet that BIFFO will do even less to push through equality legislation.
 

scotusone

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The Earl of Desmond said:
They were brought in by the EU so whether he wanted to or not he would have had to include sexual orientation at some point.

Ahern is not a crusader or policy driven leader on any issue it is safe to say

roma locutus est , causa finita est .

in other news, the pres was the legal advisor and founder member of the campaign for homosexual law reform. her advisory role was later filled by a young lady lawyer called robinson.
 

nawbut

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thanks

Thanks for the link provided.

It seems to have been a fine speech, and yes, I do think it will make a difference. The more her positive message is reported, of course, the greater the prospect of their having an effect. And its not something that will transform dramatically as a consequence of one person's utterance at one moment in time - there needs to be a committed, collective determination to counter the effects of all manifestations of prejudice and discrimination in Irish society.

Bertie, regrettably, has determined that these are not priorities he wants to bother with too much.

But well done Madam President.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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Well Bertie is the only one standing in the way - this the man without the guts to get a divorce so he is hardly going to push afor agay equality. I can't see John Gormley, Enda Kenny or Pat Rabbitte taking so long to implement gay equality.

Mary Harney I don't know - it would depend how many cakes were on the table I suppose :)
Seeing as the whole reason for the PDs is to increase inequality I can't see any PD pushing the issue.
 

returning officer

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Civil partnership is the Programe for Government (the last paragraph).
S. 37 of the Employment Equality has never been invoked.
Recognition of marriage by a same-sex couple is coming before the Supreme Court.
The gardai have specific liason officers to address concerns of gay people.
The Equality Tribunal and Authority set up under the above legislation are very pro-active but have received very few complaints from gay people.

What more is Ahern to do?
I find it baffling that people give more credit to a holder of an honourary office who makes a fine speech or who was in a previous capacity a legal advisor, than they do to an executive office holder who oversaw actual and practical reforms over the last ten years. Ahern (or BIFFO) will never be tagged as pro-gay, but so what, it is better to be gay in Ireland in 2007 than it was in 1997 and definitely 1987. Giving credit to the EEC/EU or lawyers over the government is simply blind political prejudice.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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When has Ahern ever made a speech such as that made by the President.

How come the government in Spain can introduce full equality for gay people in the face of almost violent catholic church opposition yet our great leader can't do the same here?

As to it beign better to be gay in Ireland in 2007 - are you gay? Are you growing up in a rough part of Dublin or a remote village or not able to afford to hang out in expensive clubs were being gay is 'trendy'? Ask a 12 year startign secondary school is they feel any better about people finding out they are gay than any 12 year did in 1987 or 97.
 

nawbut

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no

returning officer said:
Giving credit to the EEC/EU or lawyers over the government is simply blind political prejudice.
No, its a simple recognition of the reality.
 

Insider2007

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returning officer said:
Civil partnership is the Programe for Government (the last paragraph).
S. 37 of the Employment Equality has never been invoked.
Recognition of marriage by a same-sex couple is coming before the Supreme Court.
The gardai have specific liason officers to address concerns of gay people.
The Equality Tribunal and Authority set up under the above legislation are very pro-active but have received very few complaints from gay people.

What more is Ahern to do?
I find it baffling that people give more credit to a holder of an honourary office who makes a fine speech or who was in a previous capacity a legal advisor, than they do to an executive office holder who oversaw actual and practical reforms over the last ten years. Ahern (or BIFFO) will never be tagged as pro-gay, but so what, it is better to be gay in Ireland in 2007 than it was in 1997 and definitely 1987. Giving credit to the EEC/EU or lawyers over the government is simply blind political prejudice.
It is worth mentioning that all parties were committed in their manifestos to introducing civil partnerships. It was thought serious enough to make an explicit commitment. FG went so far as to run ads in the gay press on its proposals. The commitment of all parties on the issue was striking. If FF doesn't deliver, I would expect FG, or Labour, or someone else, to introduce a private members bill on the issue.
 

returning officer

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Ask a 12 year startign secondary school is they feel any better about people finding out they are gay than any 12 year did in 1987 or 97.

Not even Mary Robinson could make it easier for the 12 year old, now.
However in a few years when he wants to book into a hotel with his boyfriend he will find it much easier than he would have before 2000. When he gets a job, his employer will be very foolish to treat him differently to other employees because of his sexuality. By the time he is 18 he will be able to have a civil partnership with his boyfriend. If his partner become ill - he will be able to take time off work to look after him. Their pensions and benefits will be treated on an equal basis to any other State recognised couple.

I think I can safely say that he is better to have been born in 1995, than 1975 or 1965.*

I don't know if Spain has a written Constitution which places the institution of marriage on a pedestal to be protected from attack, but when the Supreme Court tells us what this means - then the government can bring in civil partnership - which will be done in plenty of time for the gay 12 year old. When has Ahern ever made a moving speech?

* It is not to be read that I am claiming that Ahern is solely responsible for bringing these changes about, which would be as equal a nonsense as saying he has done nothing for gay people. All parties now support CP - and like the rest of the reform they form part of the political consensus. Therefore it will happen and again it will be on Ahern's watch.
 

The Earl of Desmond

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Civil partnership is not marriage - all it does is give gay people the same legal rights as hetro people and marriage. Calling it gay marraige or civil unions or partnership are just words - it can called anything at all as long as it affords gay people the same legal rights.

There is absolutely nothing to stop the government declare everyone has to get married in a civil location (as in France) and if they want a religious ceremony then that is up to them but the civil part is the basis of the marriage.

So when you sign the register at the Church - there is no reason why you can't do that the day before in your local police station or council office.

The ruiling on the legal definition of marriage is a total red herring.

If the outcome is that the constitution bans equality then that is against EU law which overrides the constitution so them arriage bit will end up being removed if needs be - the only thing being it drags it out for years and liens the pockets of more lawyers.
 

returning officer

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Civil partnership is not marriage - all it does is give gay people the same legal rights as hetro people and marriage.
Is this not a good thing? Is not the point of reforms to end discrimination, rather than forcing replication?

There is absolutely nothing to stop the government declare everyone has to get married in a civil location (as in France) and if they want a religious ceremony then that is up to them but the civil part is the basis of the marriage.

Try Article 41 of the Constitution (and also see Judge Dunne's interpretion of it in Zappone/Gilligan v Revenue). Denying people the right to get civilly married in a Church and forcing them to attend a registration office would not withstand any challenge on grounds of unconstutionality (but don't trust me ask a Constitutional lawyer or a law student in their first week!)

And do you really think that the ECJ is going to interfere with the Irish People's right to self-determination of what consitutes marriage and the removal of an Article from our Constitution? (I know you give credit to Europe on many reforms but that may be a step too far even for zealout nation builders in Europe).
 

scotusone

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if we want to divvy out plaudits for advancing gay rights then Maire geoghan-quinn deserves some credit for her role in pushing decriminalisation up the priority list and then insisting on a genuinely fair piece of legislation and refusing to accept discriminatory amendments .
 

Ambrose

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Re: President's word on bullying/gay people & suicide in

The Earl of Desmond said:
I seems President McAleese made a very worthwhile speech on bullying in Ireland the issue of binge drinking and drug taking.

Will it make any difference?
no one really pays any attention at all to the president.
 

Insider2007

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Apr 27, 2007
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scotusone said:
if we want to divvy out plaudits for advancing gay rights then Maire geoghan-quinn deserves some credit for her role in pushing decriminalisation up the priority list and then insisting on a genuinely fair piece of legislation and refusing to accept discriminatory amendments .
Hear hear.
 
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