Price of fighting in the second World War

Schomberg

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For the sake of it, I'd better say something before I post this :p

Both my grand dads and a few grand uncles doned the kaki in WWII, all proud of the service. None of them had been Irish Army members so this is the first I ever heard about ex Irish Army soldiers being blacklisted from state jobs at the end of the war. anyone know more about it?

Price of fighting in the second World War - The Irish Times - Sat, Nov 06, 2010

HOUSANDS OF MEN deserted the Irish Defence Forces during the Second World War to fight with the British armed forces. Some did so because of their feelings about fascism, some because they were bored, others for better pay. When those who surivived the war came home they found that, as well as dismissing them from the Defence Forces, Éamon de Valera’s government had, more damagingly, blacklisted them from all state jobs.

The charge that money was the motivation angered many of those who deserted, including Paddy Sutton, a Dubliner who was present for the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in 1945. “My pal turned to me. He said, ‘If we ever needed a reason to join up, this is it. It was a just war.’ I agreed with him. It really hit home then what an evil regime we had been fighting,” Sutton has told Robert Widders, the author of Spitting on a Soldier’s Grave, a new book about the treatment of the servicemen.
 


idle tim

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For the sake of it, I'd better say something before I post this :p

Both my grand dads and a few grand uncles doned the kaki in WWII, all proud of the service. None of them had been Irish Army members so this is the first I ever heard about ex Irish Army soldiers being blacklisted from state jobs at the end of the war. anyone know more about it?

Price of fighting in the second World War - The Irish Times - Sat, Nov 06, 2010
What are your feelings on deserters Schom?Had they deserted the British Army would you see them as "Cowards" beneath contempt?.They got of lightly in my opinion,i wonder how many of the deserters were courtmartialed and sentenced to prison terms on their return?.
 

kerdasi amaq

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They weren't Irish citizens anymore, so, why should the Irish State employ them?
 

Schomberg

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What are your feelings on deserters Schom?Had they deserted the British Army would you see them as "Cowards" beneath contempt?.They got of lightly in my opinion,i wonder how many of the deserters were courtmartialed and sentenced to prison terms on their return?.
personally tim, i think despite our neutrality Dublin should have allowed it's soldiers to quietly slip into British army uniforms to fight what was quite possibly the most evil regime ever to exist. The swedes allowed their troops to quietly slip into Finland during the winter war there. In other words, they should never have been put in a situation where they felt they were forced to "desert" the Irish Armed Forces. What would have happened if Britain fell and we did nothing to stop it? what would that mean for Ireland?
 

SevenStars

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There were good arguments for joining the allied side in WWII. However its just wasnt possible to ally with England.
 

eyeSpy

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For the sake of it, I'd better say something before I post this :p

Both my grand dads and a few grand uncles doned the kaki in WWII, all proud of the service. None of them had been Irish Army members so this is the first I ever heard about ex Irish Army soldiers being blacklisted from state jobs at the end of the war. anyone know more about it?

Price of fighting in the second World War - The Irish Times - Sat, Nov 06, 2010
that's a shame, those men (and women?) would have learned a lot during their active service and could have been good for a civil service.
they could also have been useful trainers for and leaders of our army given they had practical experience of the theory being taught in the Curragh or wherever.
but maybe it was too soon for such thinking back then, understandable I guess. And if was common knowledge that thousands of your population could take a side and an active and important role in conflicts then future neutrality could be undermined.
 
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My paternal grandfather was in the British Army. Career soldier though. My maternal great Uncle Paddy served in the 2nd World War, but funny enough, his brother, my grandfather who was in the IRA was blacklisted for years for fighting for union recognition down the docks. Was beaten up on a regular basis according to family lore. I remember as far back as the 60s my granny asking us to say a rosary so grand dad would not be beaten up at some rally or other he was on. He was.

People are awful, aren't we?
 

Cael

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What are your feelings on deserters Schom?Had they deserted the British Army would you see them as "Cowards" beneath contempt?.They got of lightly in my opinion,i wonder how many of the deserters were courtmartialed and sentenced to prison terms on their return?.
If they had deserted the British army, they would have got a somewhat more severe punishment than being backlisted from the civil service. That Dev only gave them such an inconsequential punishment just shows that he did not consider the free state army a real army.
 

Schomberg

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If they had deserted the British army, they would have got a somewhat more severe punishment than being backlisted from the civil service. That Dev only gave them such an inconsequential punishment just shows that he did not consider the free state army a real army.
how come those who deserted the irish army and didn't go to fight hitler didn't get any punishment? :confused:
 

Cael

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how come those who deserted the irish army and didn't go to fight hitler didn't get any punishment? :confused:
The IRA is the only Irish Army.
 

Conor

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The IRA is the only Irish Army.
The Free State army is also Irish. Whatever else one might say about it, it's certainly Irish.
 

Cael

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The Free State army is also Irish. Whatever else one might say about it, it's certainly Irish.
But, by definition, they are not the Irish Army, since the British state only allows them to operate in 26 out of our 32 counties.
 

Odyessus

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how come those who deserted the irish army and didn't go to fight hitler didn't get any punishment? :confused:

Who says they didn't? I imagine anyone convicted of desertion would have been treated in the same way.

I believe any criminal conviction disqualifies one from recruitment into the civil service.
 

dakid

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But, by definition, they are not the Irish Army, since the British state only allows them to operate in 26 out of our 32 counties.
You obvoiusly haven't read "Bunreacht na h'Eireann"
 

Schomberg

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Who says they didn't? I
eh did you even read the article?

Soldiers who deserted but did not join the British army were treated differently: some were not even arrested, and their names were left off the list, says Widders, who came across this chapter in military history through “a dismissive, almost contemptuous reference” in an out-of-date history book on sale in a Limerick charity shop.
 

Odyessus

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eh did you even read the article?


I do not take "a dismissive, almost contemptuous reference in an out-of-date history book on sale in a Limerick charity shop" as an authoritative source.


As I have pointed out before, the Irish army, and most other armies, make a distinction between being absent without leave and desertion.

Anyone absent without leave is not automatically charged with desertion, and those that are, are not invariably convicted of it. They are often convicted of the lesser charge of being absent without leave.

Soldiers of the Irish army joining the British army would almost certainly be convicted of desertion, but people who never joined any other army have also been convinced of deserting the Irish army. Such people would also be barred from the civil service.
 

The Field Marshal

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But, by definition, they are not the Irish Army, since the British state only allows them to operate in 26 out of our 32 counties.
And by extension of loon poster :confused:Caels crackpot definition all persons resident in the 26 counties are not Irish either.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 


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