Primary School patronage and the VEC.....

Stroke

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
450
Interesting new model of patronage on primary schools by VEC was piloted in D.15 in 2008, now being rolled out outside of Dublin.....

Revolutionary new school model on cards for Johnstown - News - Roundup - Articles - Meath Chronicle

Navan principals to meet VEC on new community national school - News - Navan - Articles - Meath Chronicle

Comments from the local catholic church representative about the project, none from the other denominations about the allegedly multi-denominational model, and two different versions of the same story in the same newspaper in the same week. Strange situation in a town where there are already an adequate number of schools to meet the current demand for primary school places, and not enough for second level....
 


nbgb

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
70
I thought there were no more of these type of primary school to be built until the pilot ones in D15 were evaluated?
 

concerned parent22

New member
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Messages
1
I just want to complain about all the recent half page advertisements the VEC have been taking out in local Tallaght newspapers, since the news that 3 new primary schools are to be opened in this area over the next 2 years. Plus they have sent fliers asking for parents to pre-enrol in the proposed schools, to every creche in the Tallaght area. As a State operated, Government funded body, I would prefer it if public money wasn't wasted on such a large scale advertising campaign. If parents want a VEC school, they'll say so, without the need for a wasteful campaign. I'd prefer the money to be spent on education.
 

DJP

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
12,620
We were supposed to know by last month at the latest what new primary schools are going to be built in the state over the next few years!
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
I just want to complain about all the recent half page advertisements the VEC have been taking out in local Tallaght newspapers, since the news that 3 new primary schools are to be opened in this area over the next 2 years. Plus they have sent fliers asking for parents to pre-enrol in the proposed schools, to every creche in the Tallaght area. As a State operated, Government funded body, I would prefer it if public money wasn't wasted on such a large scale advertising campaign. If parents want a VEC school, they'll say so, without the need for a wasteful campaign. I'd prefer the money to be spent on education.
VECs waste money on long leases for buildings they will give up when supposedly the government merges them. So don't be surprised at them spending on advertising.

It would be better if Educate Together and other voluntary organisations were sponsors of primary schools instead of the bureaucratic VECs.
 

RainyDay

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Messages
2,548
It would be better if Educate Together and other voluntary organisations were sponsors of primary schools instead of the bureaucratic VECs.
What's the basis for your evaluation of the respective patronage abilities of the VECs and ET?
 

imokyrok

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
4,490
I hope the primary VECs do a better job of inclusion than our local secondary VEC which makes little or no effort to differentiate itself from any Catholic secondary school. In fact if anything it's more dogmatic than the local Catholic secondary school in my experience having had children in both. And the VECs don't have sufficient guidelines to encourage inclusion. Actually if they have any guidelines I have't been able to find them.
 

Stroke

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
450
Officially the VEC schools are still a pilot scheme, and are not subject to the same PTR's that the other schools in the state are subject to.

Since I first raised this matter 2 years ago, the school in question has increased number of pupils on its roll from 7 to double figures, now has 2 teaching staff and an SNA AFAIK, and is still renting a bar in a rugby club. Meanwhile, the rest of the schools in the town have seent he abolition of ALL Resources Teachers for Travellers (approx 6 posts), together with a number of mainstream class teachers, several Learning Support and EAL teachers. Legislation was passed inthe last Dáil allowing for the formation of proper representative BOM's forcing the VEC to allow parents a say in the patronage and ethos of the school, not sure if this has been enacted by the VEC's

How did this expensive pilot scheme avoid the Troika plan? Looking a the proposed new schools programme, there are a number of VEC schools proposed for Dublin & Cork AFAIK....
 

imokyrok

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
4,490
Officially the VEC schools are still a pilot scheme, and are not subject to the same PTR's that the other schools in the state are subject to.

Since I first raised this matter 2 years ago, the school in question has increased number of pupils on its roll from 7 to double figures, now has 2 teaching staff and an SNA AFAIK, and is still renting a bar in a rugby club. Meanwhile, the rest of the schools in the town have seent he abolition of ALL Resources Teachers for Travellers (approx 6 posts), together with a number of mainstream class teachers, several Learning Support and EAL teachers. Legislation was passed inthe last Dáil allowing for the formation of proper representative BOM's forcing the VEC to allow parents a say in the patronage and ethos of the school, not sure if this has been enacted by the VEC's

How did this expensive pilot scheme avoid the Troika plan? Looking a the proposed new schools programme, there are a number of VEC schools proposed for Dublin & Cork AFAIK....
The Educate Together model has proven itself very successful at delivering quality education in an inclusive environment. Why doesn't the VEC work with them rather than trying to reinvent the wheel?
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
What's the basis for your evaluation of the respective patronage abilities of the VECs and ET?
I dislike bureaucracy encroaching on voluntary sector activities where it isn't needed.Many UK councils have proved poor patrons,forcing the Blair government to free up schools as self governing academies funded directly from Westminster.

In Ireland,private schools generally set the pace in popularity with parents and exam results. How many VEC schools compare with them?
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
I hope the primary VECs do a better job of inclusion than our local secondary VEC which makes little or no effort to differentiate itself from any Catholic secondary school. In fact if anything it's more dogmatic than the local Catholic secondary school in my experience having had children in both. And the VECs don't have sufficient guidelines to encourage inclusion. Actually if they have any guidelines I have't been able to find them.
Could you give specific examples of the above mentioned dogmatism?
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
Officially the VEC schools are still a pilot scheme, and are not subject to the same PTR's that the other schools in the state are subject to.

Since I first raised this matter 2 years ago, the school in question has increased number of pupils on its roll from 7 to double figures, now has 2 teaching staff and an SNA AFAIK, and is still renting a bar in a rugby club. Meanwhile, the rest of the schools in the town have seent he abolition of ALL Resources Teachers for Travellers (approx 6 posts), together with a number of mainstream class teachers, several Learning Support and EAL teachers. Legislation was passed inthe last Dáil allowing for the formation of proper representative BOM's forcing the VEC to allow parents a say in the patronage and ethos of the school, not sure if this has been enacted by the VEC's

How did this expensive pilot scheme avoid the Troika plan? Looking a the proposed new schools programme, there are a number of VEC schools proposed for Dublin & Cork AFAIK....
To answer the question about the Troika,aren't VECs a patronage machine for TDs?
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
The Educate Together model has proven itself very successful at delivering quality education in an inclusive environment. Why doesn't the VEC work with them rather than trying to reinvent the wheel?
Educate Together as a voluntary organisation is probably very cost conscious,an attitude that would leave no scope for patronage seeking TDs and others in VECs?
 

stakerwallace

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
13,185
I dislike bureaucracy encroaching on voluntary sector activities where it isn't needed.Many UK councils have proved poor patrons,forcing the Blair government to free up schools as self governing academies funded directly from Westminster.

In Ireland,private schools generally set the pace in popularity with parents and exam results. How many VEC schools compare with them?
The vast majority of people do not attend private schools or should I say "fee paying" schools. Hence your claims in respect of popularity is made in error. VEC schools provide a very broad service to huge swathes of society and do so largely without entrance exams, means tests, private feeder prep schools and all other instruments employed to ensure advantage. It's no surprise to me that many of these private schools were initiated by noted egalitarians like the Jesuits and the Benedictines.
 

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
The vast majority of people do not attend private schools or should I say "fee paying" schools. Hence your claims in respect of popularity is made in error. VEC schools provide a very broad service to huge swathes of society and do so largely without entrance exams, means tests, private feeder prep schools and all other instruments employed to ensure advantage. It's no surprise to me that many of these private schools were initiated by noted egalitarians like the Jesuits and the Benedictines.
Most of the independent private schools do not charge fees,given that government grants are unavailable to fee paying schools.

You seem to be implying that unselective admissions policy explains or even excuses VEC schools' presumably inferior academic results.If so, that raises important questions for educational policy. How selective are typical private schools in admissions? If they are selective,could it be because they are deprived of numerous grants available to VECs,as a teacher acquaintance in Limerick claimed? How does the percentage of VEC Leaving Cert graduates accepted into the degree courses that require the highest CAO points compare to the same percentage for private schools?

In the UK,most of the admissions to the top universities come from the independent fee paying schools,with state schools providing a pathetic few. State school standards should be higher in Ireland,given the high level of competition with private schools and the high standards one would expect from very highly paid,socially respected teachers.
 

Stroke

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
450
The Educate Together model has proven itself very successful at delivering quality education in an inclusive environment. Why doesn't the VEC work with them rather than trying to reinvent the wheel?
It is my own belief that the VEC pilot was ordered by the DES under Mary Hanifin's leadership to challenge the growth of Educate Together multi-denominational ethos with a Catholic multi-denominational ethos. The VEC religious education programme "Goodness Me, Goodness You" was developed by a team led by a religious education lecturer from one of the established teacher training colleges, and the children are divided up into Catholics and other faith groups during R.E. time to protect the Catholic education of children. The Knights of Marlborough Street strike again!
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
63,162
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
It is my own belief that the VEC pilot was ordered by the DES under Mary Hanifin's leadership to challenge the growth of Educate Together multi-denominational ethos with a Catholic multi-denominational ethos. The VEC religious education programme "Goodness Me, Goodness You" was developed by a team led by a religious education lecturer from one of the established teacher training colleges, and the children are divided up into Catholics and other faith groups during R.E. time to protect the Catholic education of children. The Knights of Marlborough Street strike again!
Couldn't have put it better myself (except to mention Hanafin's well-known connections to conservative catholicism.
 

RainyDay

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Messages
2,548
I dislike bureaucracy encroaching on voluntary sector activities where it isn't needed.Many UK councils have proved poor patrons,forcing the Blair government to free up schools as self governing academies funded directly from Westminster.

In Ireland,private schools generally set the pace in popularity with parents and exam results. How many VEC schools compare with them?
So lots of opinion and no evidence then. I was just wondering if there was any evidence to support your view.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top