Property Tax 2.0

Disillusioned democrat

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So, 5 years after the introduction of the LPT it's about to be overhauled.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/up-up-and-away-what-s-in-store-for-the-local-property-tax-1.3348717

A couple of key occurrences since then:

  • many peoples' homes have nearly doubled in value making a realistic evaluation a bit steeper than in 2013
  • the government failed (some would say miserably) to implement the complementary water charges
  • we've been told we're too dependent on corporation tax so need to broaden the base

What do people think the government's options are and what's realistic to expect?
 


hammer

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I would prefer not to think about it.

Prices are up about 83% in Dublin since 2013.

Surely FG will look after all the Blueshirt property owners and bring in a fixed charge of about €300 per annum for a further 5 year period. :)
 

Spanner Island

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So, 5 years after the introduction of the LPT it's about to be overhauled.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/up-up-and-away-what-s-in-store-for-the-local-property-tax-1.3348717

A couple of key occurrences since then:

  • many peoples' homes have nearly doubled in value making a realistic evaluation a bit steeper than in 2013
  • the government failed (some would say miserably) to implement the complementary water charges
  • we've been told we're too dependent on corporation tax so need to broaden the base

What do people think the government's options are and what's realistic to expect?
Basing the tax on value was always bullsh!t...

Base it on the size of the property - square footage and have urban and rural rates and there you go...

Such a basis would be far more stable and less volatile than the valuation BS too.

I'd also apply a third reduced property tax on developers who have been granted planning permission based on the development they've been granted in order to encourage them to develop and not sit on land.

And if planning permission is sought for the the same piece of land twice and granted twice - if development isn't underway at the end of the second period the state should be able to CPO at agricultural rates.
 

Catalpast

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So, 5 years after the introduction of the LPT it's about to be overhauled.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/up-up-and-away-what-s-in-store-for-the-local-property-tax-1.3348717

A couple of key occurrences since then:

  • many peoples' homes have nearly doubled in value making a realistic evaluation a bit steeper than in 2013
  • the government failed (some would say miserably) to implement the complementary water charges
  • we've been told we're too dependent on corporation tax so need to broaden the base

What do people think the government's options are and what's realistic to expect?
Property tax is a blatant discrimination against property owners!

If it is to be there at all then let it be on a 2 nd property or on those over a certain income

Taxing ordinary joe soaps is a disgrace! :evil:
 

hammer

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USC has been reduced drastically.

Its time LPT was reduced drastically or abolished.

We dont need it :)
 

silverharp

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I would prefer not to think about it.

Prices are up about 83% in Dublin since 2013.

Surely FG will look after all the Blueshirt property owners and bring in a fixed charge of about €300 per annum for a further 5 year period. :)
I said I'd never vote FF in my lifetime, but I aint going to be happy to pay a % on over a mill just because I thought I was being sensible way back when, they wont get the D4 vote anyway
 

PBP voter

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SF and FF want to change it to a "council tax".

They want a system of rates like in the old days.

The very system FF abolished in 77. :roll:
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I said I'd never vote FF in my lifetime, but I aint going to be happy to pay a % on over a mill just because I thought I was being sensible way back when, they wont get the D4 vote anyway
Eoghan Murphy will need to be mindful of that.
 

Spanner Island

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Property taxes are very sensible, and have many advantages over other taxes.
The USC is too...

Taxes that can't be avoided via various loopholes and which are fair are the way to go...

Too many loopholes built into tax by companies who are paid a lot to advise the Govt and who build in the loopholes so they can then charge a lot to sell their 'expertise' about the loopholes to the rich in order to enable the rich to avail of the loopholes.

It's a scam.

Tax should be simple but it's deliberately not in order to facilitate these kinds of scams...
 

silverharp

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Property taxes are very sensible, and have many advantages over other taxes.
they shouldn't be based on value, should be on size or number of wage earners in property. A single person could have a one bedroom apartment in Ballsbridge worth say 500K and a family of 5 could have a 6 bed house in Tallaght with a swimming pool for the same price. Which property is using more services?
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Property taxes are very sensible, and have many advantages over other taxes.
It's actually funny how completely different two quite sensible "taxes" worked out.

People broadly accepted LPT in 2013 and now it just seems sensible, but people flipped in respect to water charges.

LPT didn't eliminate any other tax, it could have been argued that people had pre-paid LPT in stamp duty, etc., but by and large the noise died down quickly and it became the norm.

Is there a risk that FG will just add a crude services charge onto LPT to cover water so they can avoid any re-run of the water protests.
 

Uganda

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The USC is too...

Taxes that can't be avoided via various loopholes and which are fair are the way to go...

Too many loopholes built into tax by companies who are paid a lot to advise the Govt and who build in the loopholes so they can then charge a lot to sell their 'expertise' about the loopholes to the rich in order to enable the rich to avail of the loopholes.

It's a scam.

Tax should be simple but it's deliberately not in order to facilitate these kinds of scams...
I feel the USC is a more effective tax than LPT. Its more straightforward and simple. Only problem with it is that it isnt paid by those who dont earn their incomes.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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they shouldn't be based on value, should be on size or number of wage earners in property. A single person could have a one bedroom apartment in Ballsbridge worth say 500K and a family of 5 could have a 6 bed house in Tallaght with a swimming pool for the same price. Which property is using more services?
Interesting conflation - water charge by the back door?

Then sell IW and pay from "general" taxation?
 

Uganda

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It's actually funny how completely different two quite sensible "taxes" worked out.

People broadly accepted LPT in 2013 and now it just seems sensible, but people flipped in respect to water charges.

LPT didn't eliminate any other tax, it could have been argued that people had pre-paid LPT in stamp duty, etc., but by and large the noise died down quickly and it became the norm.

Is there a risk that FG will just add a crude services charge onto LPT to cover water so they can avoid any re-run of the water protests.
They might try that but would be inequitable as LPT isnt paid by many of the skangers. except Paul Murphy, of course (Cant pay, wont pay, did pay)
 

Disillusioned democrat

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They might try that but would be inequitable as LPT isnt paid by many of the skangers. except Paul Murphy, of course (Cant pay, wont pay, did pay)
Equitable isn't something politicians worry about - it's about what they can "get away with" and still keep their seats.

Few taxes are equitable when you look at the Swiss cheese tax laws the various governments have enacted over the past decades.
 

asset test

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I feel the USC is a more effective tax than LPT. Its more straightforward and simple. Only problem with it is that it isnt paid by those who dont earn their incomes.
And LPT is not paid by those renting either. Even though they use services just the same as everyone else.

Council tax with waivers like in UK based on rate bands brings everyone into the net whether paying USC or not.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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And LPT is not paid by those renting either. Even though they use services just the same as everyone else.

Council tax with waivers like in UK based on rate bands brings everyone into the net whether paying USC or not.
I'm pretty sure one of the components of the huge increases in rent since 2013 was to cover LPT - other than Noonan giving some charity status for tax purposes there aren't many landlords that operate a charity.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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"Taxing of family homes is immoral" and I quote...besides it's literally none of FGs or the states business.

Homes Bought and paid for so fEUch right off. Private property, 'gerroff my land'! :)

Why dont they charge for services instead...OH, they do already.

Property tax should be abolished.

Vote FG they promised they would abolish it if they got into government.

WAIT, WHAT they were/are in government and havent abolished it but are looking at increasing it????????

:D
 
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