Property Tax 2.0

hammer

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Property taxes are very sensible, and have many advantages over other taxes.
Agreed, but when they get too high there is major trouble ahead.

A family, home owner may pay €400 - € 700 pa but if it were to DOUBLE it could lead to it being ABOLISHED.
 


onetimeonly

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Agreed, but when they get too high there is major trouble ahead.

A family, home owner may pay €400 - € 700 pa but if it were to DOUBLE it could lead to it being ABOLISHED.
If you own a single home, you pay a smallish generic amount. 2 homes, double it. 3 homes, double the amount for 2 homes. And so on.

It should release some property into the market too.
 

Analyzer

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So, 5 years after the introduction of the LPT it's about to be overhauled.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...in-store-for-the-local-property-tax-1.3348717

A couple of key occurrences since then:

  • many peoples' homes have nearly doubled in value making a realistic evaluation a bit steeper than in 2013
  • the government failed (some would say miserably) to implement the complementary water charges
  • we've been told we're too dependent on corporation tax so need to broaden the base

What do people think the government's options are and what's realistic to expect?
Actually, being honest about it, we are dependent on PAYE for tax, as the rest is fairly variable.

And in any case, the "broaden the tax base" argument usually amounts to more tax accumulation for the largesse ridden state system, it does not amount to a static overall measure. And definitely not a reduction.

McCreevy reduced PAYE, and the ISIS Times, PRAVDA-rte, and TASC ( a think tank advocating more statism ) lost the plot.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Honestly, ALL tax should be abolished.

The EURO is freely , ie 'at no cost to the producer' flung off from printer presses daily.

Pay the electorates tax liability with it instead of bailing out banks

Re-Elected EVERY time!
 

Spanner Island

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And dont forget any increase in LPT will be more than likely passed on to tenants.
It doesn't have to go up...

It needs to be more equitable however.

The current value basis means people in urban areas in relatively modest houses paying as much or more than people living in mansions down the country...

It's difficult to imagine anything more volatile than value on which to base it too...

The spiel at the time when it was introduced was that the Govt wanted a stable tax - which was always a contemptible load of hypocritical sh!te given that they chose value on which to base it...

And it remains a contemptible load of hypocritical sh!te.
 
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Analyzer

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Honestly, ALL tax should be abolished.

The EURO is freely , ie 'at no cost to the producer' flung off from printer presses daily.

Pay the electorates tax liability with it instead of bailing out banks

Re-Elected EVERY time!
Hold on. You are not suggesting that they print money for the plebs, surely ?

That is only a measure that is deemed necessary in the cases of the needy - banks, insurance companies, reckless governments run by political politicians, etc....
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Hold on. You are not suggesting that they print money for the plebs, surely ?

That is only a measure that is deemed necessary in the cases of the needy - banks, insurance companies, reckless governments run by political politicians, etc....
I'm not suggesting they should do that. I'm just suggesting they should realise when to quit before they go the way of the French.
 

Factchecker

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Actually, being honest about it, we are dependent on PAYE for tax, as the rest is fairly variable.

And in any case, the "broaden the tax base" argument usually amounts to more tax accumulation for the largesse ridden state system, it does not amount to a static overall measure. And definitely not a reduction.

McCreevy reduced PAYE, and the ISIS Times, PRAVDA-rte, and TASC ( a think tank advocating more statism ) lost the plot.
I agree, the "broaden the tax base" argument does not cut it for me. Especially in Ireland where tax revenues are not spent in lean and efficient way.

I find any tax that is not linked to 'ability to pay', unjust.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I agree, the "broaden the tax base" argument does not cut it for me. Especially in Ireland where tax revenues are not spent in lean and efficient way.

I find any tax that is not linked to 'ability to pay', unjust.
There are two separate issues - tax base and tax waste.

The tax base IS to narrow and the depression in 2010 showed that we are too dependent on PAYE/Corporate Tax for good planning, so it DOES make sense to broaden the tax base.

But when 95% of the tax paying citizens look on in dismay as the government funds money pits like Social Welfare, Health Education and Justice with very little focus on VFM it's also very fair to question the OVERALL tax take.

It was ironic to see this guy on the news last week celebrating record tax takes in Ireland



without an abject apology from this guy



about how it still can't ensure homes, a functioning justice system and a decent healthcare system.
 

gerhard dengler

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One of the "selling points" for the introduction of this odious Local Property Tax, by the Fine Gael/Labour government 2011-2016, was that the imposition of this tax would help to moderate property valuations. Another lie of course. Property prices were not moderated.
 

silverharp

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It's a bad tax by any standards. A land value tax would be fairer.
you cant monitise land value and it also implies you cant own land freely, so nooooo
 

Disillusioned democrat

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It's surprising though how accepting people have become of LPT.

There was some kerfuffle at the very outset, but by and large it's been "easy" money for politicians - particularly when compared to water charges.

I'm not sure what the objective of revisiting the value drivers are now. Are they:
  • to recognise the increase in property value and somehow reduce the overall impact to make LPT stay "under the radar"
  • is it a way to surreptitiously bolt water charges on
  • is it to re balance the urban/rural split that saw about 50% of the GDA's "local tax" cross the Shannon?

    I can't imagine FG want to reopen the IW wound and make people take notice to the money disappearing from their salaries since 2014.
 

asset test

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I think it is fear of a backlash from urban areas like Dublin compared to haciendas down the country.

That combined with the fact that in addition to high LPT in the cities, a good chunk of it is also disbursed to areas with low LPT yields (but big houses on big sites!).

An amount per sq m + site size, with a certain premium for access to services in the cities maybe?
 

Disillusioned democrat

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I think it is fear of a backlash from urban areas like Dublin compared to haciendas down the country.

That combined with the fact that in addition to high LPT in the cities, a good chunk of it is also disbursed to areas with low LPT yields (but big houses on big sites!).

An amount per sq m + site size, with a certain premium for access to services in the cities maybe?
A reflection, perhaps, that FG's big guns are becoming more and more "urban"?

Varadkar, Donohoe, Murphy, Madigan, Mitchell-O'Connor, Coveney, Bruton - all dependent on urban votes.
 

Franzoni

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I think it is fear of a backlash from urban areas like Dublin compared to haciendas down the country.

That combined with the fact that in addition to high LPT in the cities, a good chunk of it is also disbursed to areas with low LPT yields (but big houses on big sites!).

An amount per sq m + site size, with a certain premium for access to services in the cities maybe?

Good luck with that one....Leos mate Rocky didn't even make the quota here last time and was only a few hundred votes ahead of the FFer.......
 

Brehon

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you cant monitise land value and it also implies you cant own land freely, so nooooo
https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/successfull-examples-of-land-value-tax-reforms/2011/02/05

Do some research before making statements like that. There's lots more research on LVT out there. LVT is no barrier to private ownership. Land only gets its value from society. So yes you can monitize land. Of course you can, land is bought and sold every day. Is that not monitization?
 


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