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Property tax changeover


dent

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Joined
Mar 2, 2007
Messages
5,462
Just as a suggestion, on the assumption that SOME sort of property tax is coming in, if we were to have a two tier property tax scenario.

What I suggest is

1) Starting off, every house in the country pays say, €200 a year, which wouldn't be as bad as people are expecting.

2) However, when a house is sold, Stamp duty is either not charged or it is minimal, but that house then switches over to the new system of a higher property tax e.g €800-1000 a year (or higher depending on the house).

The advantages are

1) the concerns of people who have paid large amounts in Stamp Duty are in someway mitigated.

2) We would be moving away from once off transaction taxes.

3) As we are selling so few houses anyway, this is the perfect time to do this.

4) Surely it would find favour with the EU who have long been pressing for us to charge a property tax.

5) Perhaps it might help movement in the Property Sales as people wouldn't be faced with a big up front Stamp Duty payment.

Perhaps I have the amounts wrong but it's the general idea that I'm getting at.
 

Dunlin3

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Jan 31, 2009
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Although I agree with much of what you are saying € 200 a year until a property sells is a non runner. Many houses will not sell for years and the tax revenue is badly needed. A phased scheme maybe the way to go, brought in over a 5 year period. The commission on taxation have already made recommendations to make allowances for people who have paid large lump sums of stamp duty in the last few years.

I can't understand why the goverment is taking so long to signal their intentions in this area, it's going to have to happen. Why should those that need to move house continue to get screwed. We need a more equitable property tax now.
 
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Decadance

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Feb 20, 2009
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528
My own opinion is that a property tax where individuals have to make a return themselves will become an easy target for people to vent their anger at the present government.

It is easier for people to withhold this payment in a sort of protest to force the Government to give into an election. Taxes on transactions; pay etc are much easier to generate collect. The property tax will I believe become the focus for the end of this current Government.

Take one example of a couple both now unemployed with a few small children and in negative equity - placing the burden of a property tax on them will not wash!
 

Dunlin3

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Take one example of a couple both now unemployed with a few small children and in negative equity - placing the burden of a property tax on them will not wash!
The commission on taxation have already stated that there should be exceptions for those on low incomes. There are plenty that can afford to pay and there are plenty that should be paying a property tax who are not paying any income tax.

I'd also like to add that there are plenty of the generation who have well and truely screwed this country who paid very little stamp duty/property tax compared to those who have puchased some homes in the last few years as they purchased their family homes so long ago. Under the current system they will continue to pay nothing going forward. It's no coincidence why they are dragging their heels on this as they will have to pay also.
 
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wexfordman

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Residential property tax should not exceed the rental property tax which currently stands at 200 euro! Will be interesting too see how
Much they raise the rental prop tax
 
Joined
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"I can't can't understand why the goverment is taking so long to signal their intentions in this area, it's going to have to happen".

Maybe those in government currently have friends with lots of properties and these would be people that would be hit in a big way by the property tax. Also maybe a lot of people that vote for them have a number of properties. It would put me off bringing it in for as long as possible.
 

Baron von Biffo

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If we are to have a property tax the only fair way to do it is on the basis of house value. Hitting an isolated cottage for the same tax as the most expensive houses in the country just compounds the inequalities in the tax system
 

Dunlin3

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"I can't can't understand why the goverment is taking so long to signal their intentions in this area, it's going to have to happen".

Maybe those in government currently have friends with lots of properties and these would be people that would be hit in a big way by the property tax. Also maybe a lot of people that vote for them have a number of properties. It would put me off bringing it in for as long as possible.
There's only about 20 to 25% of die hard FFs that are going to vote for them anyway. They're well a truely f**ked so they may as well get on and do it.
 

Squire Allworthy

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If we are to have a property tax the only fair way to do it is on the basis of house value. Hitting an isolated cottage for the same tax as the most expensive houses in the country just compounds the inequalities in the tax system

The following problems then occur;


  • You effectively tax improvements as these increase value.
  • You have to arrive at estimated values and therefore need a whole new level of administration.
  • Someone on low income say a person who has retired and continuing to live in the house in which they brought up their families is then perhaps paying more in tax that a household with 4 working adults.
  • As the values in an area increase the tax increases but your income may not. This is particularly important in relation to business property and can have the effect of forcing out local business.
That is just a start. I think a fairer measure is taxing on ability to pay.
 

CPAMG

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Jul 16, 2009
Messages
7
If we are to have a property tax the only fair way to do it is on the basis of house value. Hitting an isolated cottage for the same tax as the most expensive houses in the country just compounds the inequalities in the tax system
Personally if your talking about 'fairness' - I'd base it on the equity in the house.

House worth 300,000 - mortgage 200000 leaves 100000 equity.

Say .5% on the equity - €500 p/a.

If the value of the house is less than the mortgage - no property tax.

It shouldn't push those in negative equity over the edge with their mortgages.
 

Arracht

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Jul 14, 2010
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Residential property tax should not exceed the rental property tax which currently stands at 200 euro! Will be interesting too see how
Much they raise the rental prop tax
+1
That tax is way too low as it stands.
 
Joined
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There's only about 20 to 25% of die hard FFs that are going to vote for them anyway. They're well a truely f**ked so they may as well get on and do it.
I completely agree with you. It should have been brought in years ago. I was just speculating on why it's taken them so long.
 

Dunlin3

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I completely agree with you. It should have been brought in years ago. I was just speculating on why it's taken them so long.
They've sat on their hand for nearly three years now. Made redicolous pay agreements with the public sector, one that they should never have agreed to in 2008 and could never of honoured and another that was made this year that they won't be able to honour either.

Meanwhile they have taken easy options, although justifiable in cutting pay, social welfare and introducing levies, they have done nothing to change the taxation system. When asked Lenihan said recently that no work had been done to lay the ground work for a property tax. Why the f**k not, what have these idiots been doing? They need to replace stamp duty, a grossly unfair form of taxation that isn't generating any income with a more equitable and sustainable system. Nearly every country in Europe has some kind of system, look at what they do and get on with it.

They're like rabbits caught in headlights and need to be run over quickly so someone can come in and make the changes needed. The sooner this is done the better for everyone.
 
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wexfordman

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Personally if your talking about 'fairness' - I'd base it on the equity in the house.

House worth 300,000 - mortgage 200000 leaves 100000 equity.

Say .5% on the equity - €500 p/a.

If the value of the house is less than the mortgage - no property tax.

It shouldn't push those in negative equity over the edge with their mortgages.
Sshh, so those that are older, or those that spent more money paying off their mortages should pay more than those that did bit eh?

Make those interest only mortgages very efficient for property tax eh!!

Nice to see that I'll be paying my propertty tax based on some other guys financial decisions rather than my own!!
 

CPAMG

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Jul 16, 2009
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Sshh, so those that are older, or those that spent more money paying off their mortages should pay more than those that did bit eh?

Make those interest only mortgages very efficient for property tax eh!!

Nice to see that I'll be paying my propertty tax based on some other guys financial decisions rather than my own!!
I hear you!! But a property tax in some form is coming.

What do you propose?
 

Baron von Biffo

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The following problems then occur;


  • You effectively tax improvements as these increase value.
I can't see the problem here.

  • You have to arrive at estimated values and therefore need a whole new level of administration.
That's an argument against any new form of tax.

  • Someone on low income say a person who has retired and continuing to live in the house in which they brought up their families is then perhaps paying more in tax that a household with 4 working adults.
Ability to pay would have to be taken into account.

  • As the values in an area increase the tax increases but your income may not. This is particularly important in relation to business property and can have the effect of forcing out local business.
I think we're discussing residential property here so there would be no impact on business assets.

That is just a start. I think a fairer measure is taxing on ability to pay.
Do you mean increased income tax?
 

Baron von Biffo

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Personally if your talking about 'fairness' - I'd base it on the equity in the house.

House worth 300,000 - mortgage 200000 leaves 100000 equity.

Say .5% on the equity - €500 p/a.

If the value of the house is less than the mortgage - no property tax.

It shouldn't push those in negative equity over the edge with their mortgages.
Do that and you get into a whole new area of tax avoidance mortgaging.
 

quackquack

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Feb 19, 2009
Messages
275
Make it flat.
Investors got stuck with that tax and survived.
Why should they subsidize everyone else.
The nation does not have a db of house values etc, and the last thing we need is another bunch of jobsworths trying to do so.

Remove stamp duty at same time.
Investors got hit with full stamp duty on top and survived. Everyone should pay.

People who have paid full stamp duty in the past will have an easier time selling their houses in future with stamp duty gone, so also benefit.

Don't create exception lists - everyone should pay their share - it's 20 packs of smokes a year at the end of the day. Or a few of months watching rooney's fat head on sky.

In a few years, when we have an efficient public service, we can think about bringing in a graduated system.
 
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bob3344

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Dec 5, 2007
Messages
7,115
Two suggestions

1) Anyone who has paid a significant amount of stamp duty during the boom should be exempt for a defined period (10 years ?)

2) All the country dwellers who have saved money by building one-off houses should pay more to reflect the cost of providing services to them.
 
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