Protestantism's failure in Ireland

THR

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Re: Gombeen

Gombeen said:
THR said:
Nice to know that you have visited my country. I hope you enjoyed your stay.
I enjoyed Finland a lot. Of course, being a Green I have a particular affinity with your country, since the Green Party has already been in government there! :D

THR said:
I must say that I have never heard of any rebellion in order to keep the Catholic faith in Finland. Pagan religions flourished until the 17th century in many parts of the country and many people were executed, ie burned, for practicing those beliefs.
That's interesting. So Catholicism and Christianity in general probably wasn't that well established in Finland in the first place then, I suppose. Maybe you have to consider the fact that Christianity/Catholicism had about 500 more years to establish itself in Ireland before the Reformation came, than it did in Finland.
Christianity, no doubt, entered Ireland much earlier than it entered Finland but it entered Finland earlier than the old-fashioned interpretetation that the Swedes brought it in the 12th century. It has become increasingly evident that Christianity came to Finland from the east.

The green party in Finland indeed was in the government for almost two parliamentary terms in 1995-2002. When the government decided to construct a new nuclear reactor, the greens saw no other alternatives than to leave the government as anti nuclear power-stance is their central tenet.

We have parliamentary election in March and there is increasing speculation that the greens may re-enter the government. Personally I can`t see that happening as the decision to build more nuclear reactors has not been reversed.
 


chris_nelson

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Catalpa said:
The fact that Englishmen were giving the Irish and Old English a lecture on their religion that they had practised for centuries didn’t go down too well.
A little known fact is that it was the Irish who were largely responsible for reintroducing catholicism to England in the aftermath of the withdrawal of the Romans and the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

The question as a whole is interesting though; I never really understood why it was that the English and the Irish never got on, when the outcome has proved so different with the Scots and the Welsh.

Of course in Scotland there was the unification of the Crowns - and in Wales there was the Tudors. But surely there's more to it than that?
 

the king

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War and Poloitics have no place in a Church of any kind, a Church should be open to all,it should be a safe place to go and get away from issue's like those.
 

just_society

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Difficult to tell.

But since English rule itself was resented in Ireland, it was never likely that their religion would catch on either. The earlier point made that the Anglican church of Ireland was one mostly for the settled English elite is borne out even to this day. Most C of I people I know have very English sounding surnames ie Annsley, Johnstone etc.

Anglicanism itself is almost like a compromise between classic Catholic and Protestant culture. With vestments, bishops, and a limited amount of church art. There are those who think Angicanism is not protestant enough!
 

stewiegriffin

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Are we not essentially protestant in attitude anyway?
Irish catholics seem quite flexible on many issues , like going to mass,divorce, and abortion(as long as its abroad) .Does anyone accept the concept of immaculate conception?
 

st333ve

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They took our language, they took our schools, they took our land and they took our food.
If the irish also lost their religion they would have been completely ethnically cleansed, it was probobly all people had left to hold onto at the time.
 

St Disibod

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just_society said:
Anglicanism itself is almost like a compromise between classic Catholic and Protestant culture. With vestments, bishops, and a limited amount of church art. There are those who think Angicanism is not protestant enough!
Indeed Canon Gregory Cameron, Deputy Secretary General of the Anglican Communion, recently caused a stir by differentiating between Anglicans and Protestants. His preferred terms are Catholic and Reformed (in some places more one than the other- in either direction).

However and closer to home, it is clearly set out in the Church of Ireland's preamble and declaration that it is a Protestant Church. Also, the Accession Declaration of the British Monarch would suggest the Church of England is Protestant too (for those who still keep the prejudicial fires alive please note, the Church of Ireland uses republican structures while the Church of England uses monarchical ones- in keeping with their national contexts; i.e. the Church of Ireland is proudly Irish*). The least controversial term is Reformed, but I think that's just an operation of hair-splitting. 'Dirty black prods' will do the trick nicely.

*- I recently heard one bishop describe himself as "Irish- and fanatically so."
 

st333ve

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stewiegriffin said:
Are we not essentially protestant in attitude anyway?
Irish catholics seem quite flexible on many issues , like going to mass,divorce, and abortion(as long as its abroad) .Does anyone accept the concept of immaculate conception?
Im catholic and i think the bible is full of bolox.
That doesnt make me a protestant.
I also believe that catholics are more respectful to other religions whereas the protestant orange order and its church spurts medievil comments like....

" will have such a sense of my duty as a Protestant that I will not marry a member of the Romanish Church or Papist, nor stand sponsor for the child of a Roman Catholic when receiving baptism by a Priest of Rome, nor permit a Papist to stand sponsor for my child at its baptism"
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltrut ... 20Oath.htm

Everyone has their own personal views on religion.
I dont agree with a lot of the catholic churches attitudes, then again neither do some priests.
I also do not agree with the protestant religion flying union jacks and being so political, religion shouldnt take sides or try to interfere in politics, nor should it condemn other religions or peoples sexual orientation.

But we do not live in a perfect world, there is no such thing as a perfect religion and everyone should respect other peoples religious wether they agree with them or not.

My blunt opinion is that the catholic and protestant religion is the same muddled up bible stuff witha few different takes on things.
Both are equally full of crap.
 

the king

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I actually agree with you st333e, its all a load of horseshit in the end. Flags have no place in so called holy places. As for people with English surnames :roll: try Gerry ADAMS!! The greatest Pox on Ireland was Religion. Royalty and Popes both tyrants who abused Ireland!!
 

joel

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st333ve said:
stewiegriffin said:
Are we not essentially protestant in attitude anyway?
Irish catholics seem quite flexible on many issues , like going to mass,divorce, and abortion(as long as its abroad) .Does anyone accept the concept of immaculate conception?
Im catholic and i think the bible is full of bolox.
That doesnt make me a protestant.
I also believe that catholics are more respectful to other religions whereas the protestant orange order and its church spurts medievil comments like....

" will have such a sense of my duty as a Protestant that I will not marry a member of the Romanish Church or Papist, nor stand sponsor for the child of a Roman Catholic when receiving baptism by a Priest of Rome, nor permit a Papist to stand sponsor for my child at its baptism"
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltrut ... 20Oath.htm

If this was directed against any other group, they would be charged with descrimination - what happened to the Hate Laws? Why should people have to suffer this crap still?

Mind you, I suppose that British "Royalty" give a bad example in this respect.

I think a case should be taken to the European Court of Human Rights. (The British never realised they would be subject to proper justice when they signed up to Europe!).
 

Mahogany

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Have to ask this question.

Do any of ye feel, had the Reformation succeeded here, we'd be better off today as a country?
 

Gracchus

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Have to ask this question.

Do any of ye feel, had the Reformation succeeded here, we'd be better off today as a country?
Yes
 

eyelight

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Have to ask this question.

Do any of ye feel, had the Reformation succeeded here, we'd be better off today as a country?
Yes indeed.
 

statsman

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So why did the Reformation fundamentally fail in Ireland on a popular level?

Certainly, a Protestant ruling elite was put in place artificially by British intervention and ruled for centuries, but for the most part, the Protestant population of the whole island of Ireland are the descendents of immigrants from Scotland and England who were already Protestant when they came over.

Certainly there was limited conversion of the locals(specifically in Ulster it seems) but for the most part the native population not only remained Catholic but also suffered persecution, lack of rights and social advancement opportunities, in their determination to do so.

So where did the Brits go wrong? There are examples of colonised peoples converting to Protestantism at the behest of their occupier(Sweden and Finland spring to mind) so why didn't the Irish do so, even when they had been defeated comprehensively militarily and where they were then made economically impotent for their loyalty to Catholicism?

Why did they not seize the chance to throw of the yoke of the Romish church, which according to some had sold Ireland out to the English in the first place?

Some may attribute it to the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true church and the Irish were doing what was morally right, but I don't think most of us would buy that argument. I don't think many would argue that there is anything that made Irish people inately unable to convert to Protestantism in the past.

So what are people's views?
This might be of interest:

Multitext - Culture & Religion in Tudor Ireland, 1494-1558.

Some extracts:

Lord Deputy Grey had a small garrison of only 340 men from September 1537 and with such meagre resources he reckoned that he could not impose the reformation too vigorously without provoking political disorders. There was practically no propaganda campaign, and such reformation preaching as there was depended largely on the efforts of one individual: George Browne, the newly appointed archbishop of Dublin (1536- 1554).
Browne found that the pope’s authority was ‘not a little rooted among the inhabitants here’. He subsequently complained that of the twenty eight most senior clergymen in Dublin there was ‘scarce one’ who favoured the reformation. He admitted that ‘neither by gentle exhortation, evangelical instruction … nor by threats of sharp correction, can I persuade any, either religious or secular [priests], since my coming over, once to preach the word of God, or the just title of our most illustrious prince’. They stubbornly refused to ‘open their lips in any pulpit’ but instead did everything they could behind the scenes to thwart the archbishop’s reformation campaign. He encountered the most virulent hostility from the Observant friars.
Deputy Grey hindered Archbishop Browne’s efforts to bring about religious change. He released Canon James Humphrey, the leading Catholic dissident in Dublin, from the prison to which Browne had condemned him. Browne complained that that action destroyed his credibility. On another occasion Grey ‘heard three or four masses’ before Our Lady’s statue at Trim, County Meath, while the suffragan bishop of Meath, whom Browne had arrested, together with a number of friars, were being tried in the town for breaching the statute against the pope’s authority. Grey’s public action encouraged the jury not to indict the clergymen.
With practically no indigenous support the progress of the Protestant reformation in Ireland was to depend entirely upon the efforts of the English crown. The crown, however, would not commit sufficient resources to enforce religious change rigorously and unwittingly left the way open for the peoples of Ireland to determine their own religious destinies.
 

IrishWelshCelt

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I actually just studied the period last semester in UCD and our lecturer Ivor McGrath conclude that the main reasons was it was seen as elitist and upper class and the fact that it wasnt taught through gaelic.
 

eoghanacht

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We would have been better of if none of the cults had made it to our shores.
 

statsman

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I actually just studied the period last semester in UCD and our lecturer Ivor McGrath conclude that the main reasons was it was seen as elitist and upper class and the fact that it wasnt taught through gaelic.
And yet the local elite upperclass for the most part rejected it, too.
 

parentheses

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Even without the religious question there would have been ructions in Ireland anyway as the British crown sought to extend its authority in Ireland in the 16th century.

Ethnic tensions alone would have made matters qquite bloody.
 

eoghanacht

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meriwether

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Have to ask this question.

Do any of ye feel, had the Reformation succeeded here, we'd be better off today as a country?
We had a de facto Catholic state here since inception, and it didn't work.

NI was a Protestant state since inception, and that failed too.
 


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