Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.

Emily Davison

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
31,199


Sync

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
29,580
What do posters think of the proposed wording for the constitutional amendment on abortion.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/draft-wording-for-abortion-law-is-agreed-by-cabinet-36626344.html

It's quite short and to the point. No complications to that. Or is there. Once again as a nation we seem incapable of using the word abortion. Hence 'termination'.
I’m sure I’ll get jumped on for being wrong but I think there’s a difference between the two terms. Abortion is the expulsion of the foetus whiles it’s still viable, termination can cover that as well as ending viability in utero through other means.

So for instance if you ONLY said abortion and then looked to introduce legislation covering the termination of a 6 month old that represents a risk to the mother’s life, the wording could come into play for court challenges.
 

Spanner Island

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
23,973
I’m sure I’ll get jumped on for being wrong but I think there’s a difference between the two terms. Abortion is the expulsion of the foetus whiles it’s still viable, termination can cover that as well as ending viability in utero through other means.

So for instance if you ONLY said abortion and then looked to introduce legislation covering the termination of a 6 month old that represents a risk to the mother’s life, the wording could come into play for court challenges.
Surely with abortion resulting in the termination of a pregnancy it is therefore covered by 'termination' whereas 'termination' would not necessarily be covered by 'abortion'?

But if there is any doubt then they will need to spell it out... because the last thing we need are endless divisive court cases that will effectively turn into mini-referendums via the legal 'system'...

In addition we should avoid creating yet another cash cow for the legal eagle fraternity...
 
Last edited:

Sync

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
29,580
Surely with abortion resulting in the termination of a pregnancy it is therefore covered by 'termination' whereas 'termination' would not necessarily be covered by 'abortion'?
I think that’s what I said. It’s certainly what I meant to say.
 

Sync

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
29,580
I’ve reread what I wrote, it’s not very clear. Yours is much better.
 

Johnny Zordan

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
482
I think this referendum won't pass, almost 40 percent voted against ssm but the media like to pretend that 99.9% voted in favour of ssm.
 

MsDaisyC

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
4,154
I think this referendum won't pass, almost 40 percent voted against ssm but the media like to pretend that 99.9% voted in favour of ssm.
If it doesn't, the 13th amendment still permits and facilitates thousands of Irish abortions a year.
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
31,225
The UK law is called The Abortion Act (1967) but the wording used within the law itself seems to be "termination of pregnancy" and never "abortion".

So I wonder if there's a reason for having used the word abortion in the title, seems a little odd almost. Maybe an element of calling a spade a spade? The exact opposite of legislation by euphemism, as POLDP so unsuccessfully attempted? Just a thought.

AFAIAA the equivalent law in France refers only to "Interruption volontaire de grossesse" (Voluntary termination of pregnancy) and never to "avortement" (abortion).

But then as has been pointed out, it's the word "abortion" that is ambiguous, since traditionally it referred to any pregnancy that ended - including spontaneously - before viability, whereas "miscarriage" was when the pregnancy ended in a stillbirth, ie after 20 weeks.

So yes, termination of pregnancy seems as clear as possible, and clarity is definitely needed after all this time spent beating about the bush.
 

Spanner Island

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
23,973
I think this referendum won't pass, almost 40 percent voted against ssm but the media like to pretend that 99.9% voted in favour of ssm.
I have my doubts too.

And if it doesn't pass it doesn't pass. And if it does it does.

At least we're being consulted and being given a chance to change things if we wish to change them.

But then I reckon in Ireland we do a lot of whingeing about the way things are only to then fail to embrace or to implement change when we're given the chance...

I hope whatever the result is however, that it is respected by all.
 

MsDaisyC

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Messages
4,154
They're keeping it simple, direct and to the point which is everything the 8th amendment wasn't. If this passes (here's hoping), I can't see there being three further amendments to try clarify the mess.
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
31,225
I have my doubts too.

And if it doesn't pass it doesn't pass. And if it does it does.

At least we're being consulted and being given a chance to change things if we wish to change them.

But then I reckon in Ireland we do a lot of whingeing about the way things are only to then fail to embrace or to implement change when we're given the chance...

I hope whatever the result is however, that it is respected by all.
I don't think it's a done deal by any means either, but I'm not too sure what you mean by the last bit : it seems inevitable to me that if it doesn't pass, it will be only a question of time before there is another Ms PP, or another child locked in a psychiatric ward for having requested a ToP under section 9 of POLDP, or even another Ms Y. Or some other horror we haven't even imagined yet.

And more deaths of women having to travel for terminations for medical reasons: 'We've had a woman die on her way back from a termination': Prof Fergal Malone

Meanwhile, abortions for choice will continue as at present. Although Brexit may make the current relatively well-oiled system more complicated, leading to more illegal importations of pills taken without medical supervision.

How reasonable is it to "respect" a decision to put women's lives at risk so that some people can feel morally superior to the rest of Europe?
 

Emily Davison

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
31,199
Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that law would make provision, rather that the Oireachtas would make provision in law.

Anyway, I know I am boring you!
My understanding is that it means the Oireachteas may legislate. For abortion/terminations. And it comes out of the constitution - to be decided henceforth by law without any further need for the Constitution. It also prevents constitutional challenges.

What makes you think it's boring, every single word of that is going to be analysed. I expect acres of newsprint.
 

John Scotus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
362
What do posters think of the proposed wording for the constitutional amendment on abortion.


It's quite short and to the point. No complications to that. Or is there. Once again as a nation we seem incapable of using the word abortion. Hence 'termination'.
I'm anti-abortion,
But if the 1983 amendment is to go, why replace it with anything at all?

A state's constitution should confine itself to just that; How the state is constituted, that is how many houses of the oireachtais there are, how often we have elections, what the president is for, where the judiciary fit in...that sort of stuff.

Issues like who can kill who, who can marry who, or whether or not Irish water should be privatised, are all very important, but they are matters for the legislature, not the constitution
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top