Public sector pay freeze inevitable

patslatt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
The Irish cabinet,the highest paid one in world democracy,is likely to give up its ridiculous pay grab instead of postponing it in order to gain credibility in pay talks with the public sector's unions and professional associations and to show leadership. Under honest Brian Cowen,there is an excellent chance of this. A pay freeze for the public sector looks inevitable given that it had been making out like bandits under Benchmarking with little or no productivity gains to show for it.

The alternative is economic disaster: tax increases imposed on an imploding economy to pay for continuing public sector pay increases would lead to prolonged recession and mass unemployment of up to 12%. The finance minister's vague talk of taxes on high incomes would be the thin edge of the wedge,given that taxes on the small minority of high income people at the top of the pay pyramid don't yield much revenue.

Politically,increasing taxes would be a strategic disaster for Fianna Fail. In contemporary democracies,the loyalty to traditional political parties can't be taken for granted and complete routs at the polls can happen when voters feel aggrieved.
 


Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
Spoken like a true sheep of the right wing media. While I would fire most of the bureaucrats in the public sector and dismantle all the different bodies set up to create a soft position for a politician's cronies, the rank and file in the public sector deserve inflationary pay increases. Stop this madness of tax free horse racing and let greedy filth Dermot Desmond and Magnier start paying something towards their keep. That would be a welcome start.
 

Sligoboy

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
180
patslatt said:
The Irish cabinet,the highest paid one in world democracy,is likely to give up its ridiculous pay grab instead of postponing it in order to gain credibility in pay talks with the public sector's unions and professional associations and to show leadership. Under honest Brian Cowen,there is an excellent chance of this. A pay freeze for the public sector looks inevitable given that it had been making out like bandits under Benchmarking with little or no productivity gains to show for it.

The alternative is economic disaster: tax increases imposed on an imploding economy to pay for continuing public sector pay increases would lead to prolonged recession and mass unemployment of up to 12%. The finance minister's vague talk of taxes on high incomes would be the thin edge of the wedge,given that taxes on the small minority of high income people at the top of the pay pyramid don't yield much revenue.

Politically,increasing taxes would be a strategic disaster for Fianna Fail. In contemporary democracies,the loyalty to traditional political parties can't be taken for granted and complete routs at the polls can happen when voters feel aggrieved.
Until you display that you actually have an intimate understanding of what you are talking about nobody with the exception of bleating neo-lib hawks will pass a blind bit of heed to anything you have to say on the matter.

But for the record and contrary to your incessant kite flying, a public sector pay freeze is not inevitable
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Harpo said:
the rank and file in the public sector deserve inflationary pay increases.
The last thing we need is inflationary pay rises!

We are in a deflationary period - look at the price of gold recently, look at the reductions in availability of lending - so we need to start putting pressure on retailers and service providers to start reducing their margins.

Giving willy nilly payrises just continues the careless splurge that has led to the issues in relation to supermarket pricing.


You might also note that it is ordinary workers who will have to divvy up the couple of billion needed to feed the pay rises for the public sector, and that is not going to fly in the current environment.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
SPN said:
Harpo said:
the rank and file in the public sector deserve inflationary pay increases.
The last thing we need is inflationary pay rises!

We are in a deflationary period - look at the price of gold recently, look at the reductions in availability of lending - so we need to start putting pressure on retailers and service providers to start reducing their margins.

Giving willy nilly payrises just continues the careless splurge that has led to the issues in relation to supermarket pricing.


You might also note that it is ordinary workers who will have to divvy up the couple of billion needed to feed the pay rises for the public sector, and that is not going to fly in the current environment.
A deflationary period! I actually don't go out and buy gold but have you seen the prices increases in ESB, in fuel, in food etc etc Deflationary my arse
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Harpo said:
A deflationary period! I actually don't go out and buy gold but have you seen the prices increases in ESB, in fuel, in food etc etc Deflationary my arse
You can use less ESB, you can use less fuel, and we know that Supermarkets and Service Providers charge more in Ireland than they do elsewhere because Paddy has too much money sloshing around in his pockets and has no sense of "value".

The solution is to get people to become more thrifty, not to burden the public with extra taxes to allow the Sir Humphries to maintain their extravagant lifestyles.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
SPN said:
Harpo said:
A deflationary period! I actually don't go out and buy gold but have you seen the prices increases in ESB, in fuel, in food etc etc Deflationary my arse
You can use less ESB, you can use less fuel, and we know that Supermarkets and Service Providers charge more in Ireland than they do elsewhere because Paddy has too much money sloshing around in his pockets and has no sense of "value".

The solution is to get people to become more thrifty, not to burden the public with extra taxes to allow the Sir Humphries to maintain their extravagant lifestyles.
This is more than a simple supply and demand issue, you can't expect the poor to go cold or only eat meat twice a week in the hope that prices will eventually come down.
 

Sligoboy

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
180
SPN said:
You can use less ESB, you can use less fuel, and we know that Supermarkets and Service Providers charge more in Ireland than they do elsewhere because Paddy has too much money sloshing around in his pockets and has no sense of "value".
I'm sorry, Ireland has always been an expensive place. If there was any sort of real competition, paddy would surely not only benefit from it but exploit it. Your painting a picture of a nation lighting cigarettes with €50 notes for the past 10 years is as offence as it is ridiculous.

The solution is to get people to become more thrifty, not to burden the public with extra taxes to allow the Sir Humphries to maintain their extravagant lifestyles
Nobodies asking for that. The rank and file of the Public sector are living on meagre salaries and work hard and deliver value for money as stated in the last OECD report.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Harpo said:
This is more than a simple supply and demand issue, you can't expect the poor to go cold or only eat meat twice a week in the hope that prices will eventually come down.

That is MY point!

Do we want to raise taxes on poor people to pay wage increases for the public service?

Food poverty and fuel poverty are already major problems for people on low or fixed incomes. If we are going to spend taxpayers' money I would rather it went on worthy projects like addressing fuel and food poverty and not on enabling the public sector to continue having two holidays a year.
 

Sligoboy

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
180
SPN said:
Harpo said:
This is more than a simple supply and demand issue, you can't expect the poor to go cold or only eat meat twice a week in the hope that prices will eventually come down.

That is MY point!

Do we want to raise taxes on poor people to pay wage increases for the public service?

Food poverty and fuel poverty are already major problems for people on low or fixed incomes. If we are going to spend taxpayers' money I would rather it went on worthy projects like addressing fuel and food poverty and not on enabling the public sector to continue having two holidays a year.
Who mentioned anything about raising taxes on poor people?
 

constitutionus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
23,265
a pay freeze is inevitable.

quite simply because the cash ISNT there.

in fact its why im leaning more toward the pay talks collapsing as the reality is the public sector in gerneral is now paid 50% more on average than their counterparts in the private sector.

its simply unsustainable and TBH is now an active threat to the country cause you cant pay a leaving cert student to join the private sector if theres a chance of becoming a teacher and thats maddness.

we have to bring the sectors back into parity and seeing as were heading into a recession that means letting inflation eat away with it while local bargaining in productive areas of the private sector raise their wages up.

NO ONE want to say this but this is the reality of the situation and the unavoidable result of maddness like benchmarking - which if it really meant what it was supposed to with the current defecit would now demand sweeping pay cuts ! - and it'll be the only way of getting good people back into the private sector while waking up the public one that were not an unlimited cash cow.

the very FACT "low paid" people in the public sector on 23k a year can come on radio programs moaning about it dont even realise theyre insulting 40% of the workforce, ALL of whom are in the private sector, who are earning 18300 or LESS a year just illustrates what a bubble they live in.

NONE of em are on minimum wage, the public sector needs to cop on and realise how GOOD they have it. if fiscal reality actully kicked in not only would the lower grades not get a payrise the UPPER ones would be faced with 20% cuts or more along with the introduction of a slew of charges on things like carpark spaces

its unpallatable and politically incorrect but its the truth.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Sligoboy said:
I'm sorry, Ireland has always been an expensive place. If there was any sort of real competition, paddy would surely not only benefit from it but exploit it. Your painting a picture of a nation lighting cigarettes with €50 notes for the past 10 years is as offence as it is ridiculous.
Rev up and f**k off with your "competition" nonsense!

The primary reason our electricity is so expensive is because of the need to "encourage" the for-profit parasites into the electricity generation game, and the need for them to be able to make profits.

The sooner we go back to citizen owned not-for-profit utilities (with suitably neutered Unions), and reasonable prices (albeit with appropriate carbon levies) the better.


I'd love to see a survey of BT customers, and Dundrum Centre customers to see what proportion of them are public servants.


[quote:3q0ubail]The solution is to get people to become more thrifty, not to burden the public with extra taxes to allow the Sir Humphries to maintain their extravagant lifestyles
Nobodies asking for that. The rank and file of the Public sector are living on meagre salaries and work hard and deliver value for money as stated in the last OECD report.[/quote:3q0ubail]
Lets see them campaigning for better value from our retailers and service providers so, instead of trying to take from the mouths of the poor.
 

Sligoboy

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
180
constitutionus said:
a pay freeze is inevitable
No its not.

in fact its why im leaning more toward the pay talks collapsing as the reality is the public sector in gerneral is now paid 50% more on average than their counterparts in the private sector.
Dear God where do you get this stuff?
 

Dublinguy

Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
30
Sligoboy said:
constitutionus said:
a pay freeze is inevitable
No its not.

in fact its why im leaning more toward the pay talks collapsing as the reality is the public sector in gerneral is now paid 50% more on average than their counterparts in the private sector.
Dear God where do you get this stuff?
He got that information from the CSO!!!! Or are you saying that they don't know what they are doing???

The public sector demanded to be treated like the private sector for benchmarking etc so they can take the pain of forced job cuts etc also...
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
constitutionus said:
a pay freeze is inevitable.

quite simply because the cash ISNT there.

in fact its why im leaning more toward the pay talks collapsing as the reality is the public sector in gerneral is now paid 50% more on average than their counterparts in the private sector.

its simply unsustainable and TBH is now an active threat to the country cause you cant pay a leaving cert student to join the private sector if theres a chance of becoming a teacher and thats maddness.

we have to bring the sectors back into parity and seeing as were heading into a recession that means letting inflation eat away with it while local bargaining in productive areas of the private sector raise their wages up.

NO ONE want to say this but this is the reality of the situation and the unavoidable result of maddness like benchmarking - which if it really meant what it was supposed to with the current defecit would now demand sweeping pay cuts ! - and it'll be the only way of getting good people back into the private sector while waking up the public one that were not an unlimited cash cow.

the very FACT "low paid" people in the public sector on 23k a year can come on radio programs moaning about it dont even realise theyre insulting 40% of the workforce, ALL of whom are in the private sector, who are earning 18300 or LESS a year just illustrates what a bubble they live in.

NONE of em are on minimum wage, the public sector needs to cop on and realise how GOOD they have it. if fiscal reality actully kicked in not only would the lower grades not get a payrise the UPPER ones would be faced with 20% cuts or more along with the introduction of a slew of charges on things like carpark spaces

its unpallatable and politically incorrect but its the truth.

A pay freeze is a pay cut because inflation is running 5% or so. So basically you are saying there isn't even enough money to maintain wages which is a blatant mistruth. The fact is there is loads of wealth in Ireland right now, more than ever in fact. The problem is that it's distribution is so unequal.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Sligoboy said:
SPN said:
Harpo said:
This is more than a simple supply and demand issue, you can't expect the poor to go cold or only eat meat twice a week in the hope that prices will eventually come down.

That is MY point!

Do we want to raise taxes on poor people to pay wage increases for the public service?

Food poverty and fuel poverty are already major problems for people on low or fixed incomes. If we are going to spend taxpayers' money I would rather it went on worthy projects like addressing fuel and food poverty and not on enabling the public sector to continue having two holidays a year.
Who mentioned anything about raising taxes on poor people?
Nobody mentions raising taxes on poor people - but that is the only way to raise the money to pay for public servants second holidays and trips to BTs.
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
SPN said:
Harpo said:
This is more than a simple supply and demand issue, you can't expect the poor to go cold or only eat meat twice a week in the hope that prices will eventually come down.

That is MY point!

Do we want to raise taxes on poor people to pay wage increases for the public service?

Food poverty and fuel poverty are already major problems for people on low or fixed incomes. If we are going to spend taxpayers' money I would rather it went on worthy projects like addressing fuel and food poverty and not on enabling the public sector to continue having two holidays a year.
No i want to increase corporation tax and impose tax on those multi-millionaires who pay nothing.
 

Sligoboy

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
180
SPN said:
Rev up and f**k off with your "competition" nonsense!
Wow, do I have to clarify this issue to the point of inanity? The arguement is against the cartelism that is rampant with the services sector. I am not propagating any privatization agenda or that free markets or competition is the solution to our problem. You can look to my posting history and see for yourself where I stand on the issue. You where laying the blame for high prices on Paddies complacency and indifference to thrift, I was highlighting that he is being ripped off and has no choice and never did
.
The primary reason our electricity is so expensive is because of the need to "encourage" the for-profit parasites into the electricity generation game, and the need for them to be able to make profits.
Agreed
The sooner we go back to citizen owned not-for-profit utilities (with suitably neutered Unions), and reasonable prices (albeit with appropriate carbon levies) the better.
Agreed

I'd love to see a survey of BT customers, and Dundrum Centre customers to see what proportion of them are public servants.
?

Lets see them campaigning for better value from our retailers and service providers so, instead of trying to take from the mouths of the poor.
I think you are losing the run of yourself.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,845
Harpo said:
A pay freeze is a pay cut because inflation is running 5% or so. So basically you are saying there isn't even enough money to maintain wages which is a blatant mistruth. The fact is there is loads of wealth in Ireland right now, more than ever in fact. The problem is that it's distribution is so unequal.
Bank lending was down 16% for the first 6 months, so it is not possible for inflation to be running at 5%.


Look at all the Sales in the various retailers! 20% off. 30% off. 50% off.


All that wealth that you refer to is in reality loads of debt!

Debt is not wealth!
 

Harpo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
76
SPN said:
Harpo said:
A pay freeze is a pay cut because inflation is running 5% or so. So basically you are saying there isn't even enough money to maintain wages which is a blatant mistruth. The fact is there is loads of wealth in Ireland right now, more than ever in fact. The problem is that it's distribution is so unequal.
Bank lending was down 16% for the first 6 months, so it is not possible for inflation to be running at 5%.


Look at all the Sales in the various retailers! 20% off. 30% off. 50% off.


All that wealth that you refer to is in reality loads of debt!

Debt is not wealth!
I know what wealth is and in terms of land, natural resources, production machinery etc etc the inequality of distribution is shocking. All most ordinary people have is their labour to sell, personal belongings and a mountain of debt.
 


New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top