Public sector unions balloting for industrial action despite enjoying pay and pensions appropriate to the year 2030. Pay freeze justified till 2030.

patslatt

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Public sector unions balloting for industrial action despite enjoying pay and pensions appropriate to the year 2030. Pay freeze justified till 2030.

Irish public sector pay is on average almost half as high again as the private sector average whereas both sectors enjoy roughly equal pay in France and Germany and UK public sector pay is 13% higher. Since there is no evidence that Irish public sector workers are more productive, their pay should be frozen until private sector pay can catch up. Given the pay premium of about 45%, the freeze would need to be in place till 2030. Alternatively, given this very long time horizon,a strong case can be made for public sector pay cuts to speed up the move to pay equality.

Given the generosity of present pay levels and gold plated pensions for the top half of the public sector, public sector unions' announced balloting for industrial action against Lansdowne Road agreement should be seen as a declaration of economic war on the private sector and an attempt to loot the country, a reactionary attempt to revive the strike crazed union activity of the inflationary 1970s.

Politically, the best solution for cutting costs would be to switch all public sector defined benefit pensions to defined contribution plans like most private sector pensions where the pension payments depend on annual contributions. Coming on top of the huge national debt, the burden of unfunded public sector DB plans threatens to bankrupt the state in maybe 15 years. Those unfunded plans are paid out of taxes on a pay as you go basis.

Should the unions succeed in grabbing more of Irish taxes in higher pay and pensions, that will take from the funding of hospitals and social welfare in a diversion of funding from the truly needy to the truly greedy.
 


wombat

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Should the unions succeed in grabbing more of Irish taxes in higher pay and pensions, that will take from the funding of hospitals and social welfare in a diversion of funding from the truly needy to the truly greedy.
There is the alternative and that is to increase taxes on everyone. It would be interesting to see lifetime income compared between private sector workers and PS workers - by that I mean taking the average life expectancy and calculate how much a ps worker's pension is worth over their lifetime compared to what a private sector pension is worth. This would be more useful than the fantasy calculation of the size of a private annuity needed to fund a ps pension.
 

Clanrickard

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None of them should get a red cent until we are in surplus.
 

Hitchcock

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SeanieFitz

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Irish public sector pay is on average almost half as high again as the private sector average whereas both sectors enjoy roughly equal pay in France and Germany and UK public sector pay is 13% higher. Since there is no evidence that Irish public sector workers are more productive, their pay should be frozen until private sector pay can catch up. Given the pay premium of about 45%, the freeze would need to be in place till 2030. Alternatively, given this very long time horizon,a strong case can be made for public sector pay cuts to speed up the move to pay equality.

Given the generosity of present pay levels and gold plated pensions for the top half of the public sector, public sector unions' announced balloting for industrial action against Lansdowne Road agreement should be seen as a declaration of economic war on the private sector and an attempt to loot the country, a reactionary attempt to revive the strike crazed union activity of the inflationary 1970s.

Politically, the best solution for cutting costs would be to switch all public sector defined benefit pensions to defined contribution plans like most private sector pensions where the pension payments depend on annual contributions. Coming on top of the huge national debt, the burden of unfunded public sector DB plans threatens to bankrupt the state in maybe 15 years. Those unfunded plans are paid out of taxes on a pay as you go basis.

Should the unions succeed in grabbing more of Irish taxes in higher pay and pensions, that will take from the funding of hospitals and social welfare in a diversion of funding from the truly needy to the truly greedy.
I was wondering who would take the bait..........if no one had replied you would have had to reply yourself under one of your other accounts

Anyhoo, 18,175, 18,176..................and counting
 

ergo2

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There is the alternative and that is to increase taxes on everyone. It would be interesting to see lifetime income compared between private sector workers and PS workers - by that I mean taking the average life expectancy and calculate how much a ps worker's pension is worth over their lifetime compared to what a private sector pension is worth. This would be more useful than the fantasy calculation of the size of a private annuity needed to fund a ps pension.



What is your conclusion, in round terms?
 

Burnout

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I have a life.
I think for the first time I actually heard someone ask the question, why can we not start dropping the cost of living in this country on many items we are been ripped off on. So many of us will never get a golden pension or be protected by unions, but we still have to pay exorbitant costs for everyday items.

When you hear the likes of the cost of items up in the north compared with here, including housing, cars, leisure, alcohol etc it makes me wonder, just who some people think they are. Earlier there was a speaker on about the 50% tax rate on Irish pay comes in at 70k€ while in Spain it is 300k€.

The cost of living here is just unmanageable for most people and you cannot have the wages always going up to cover the cost of high prices. Someone has to take the bull by the horns or some of us will be even more angry.
 

The Floater

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Irish public sector pay is on average almost half as high again as the private sector average whereas both sectors enjoy roughly equal pay in France and Germany and UK public sector pay is 13% higher. Since there is no evidence that Irish public sector workers are more productive, their pay should be frozen until private sector pay can catch up. Given the pay premium of about 45%, the freeze would need to be in place till 2030. Alternatively, given this very long time horizon,a strong case can be made for public sector pay cuts to speed up the move to pay equality.

Given the generosity of present pay levels and gold plated pensions for the top half of the public sector, public sector unions' announced balloting for industrial action against Lansdowne Road agreement should be seen as a declaration of economic war on the private sector and an attempt to loot the country, a reactionary attempt to revive the strike crazed union activity of the inflationary 1970s.

Politically, the best solution for cutting costs would be to switch all public sector defined benefit pensions to defined contribution plans like most private sector pensions where the pension payments depend on annual contributions. Coming on top of the huge national debt, the burden of unfunded public sector DB plans threatens to bankrupt the state in maybe 15 years. Those unfunded plans are paid out of taxes on a pay as you go basis.

Should the unions succeed in grabbing more of Irish taxes in higher pay and pensions, that will take from the funding of hospitals and social welfare in a diversion of funding from the truly needy to the truly greedy.
One thing you dont mention here is that while civil/public Servants do get good pensions(depending on grade and length of service) they are not entitled to the state OAP despite paying PRSI, if you switched to DC most would be entitle to the state pension also.
 

wombat

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[/B]

What is your conclusion, in round terms?
I don't know, I suspect that the PS pension leaves the recipient ahead of those without but as far as I know none of the talking heads have quantified it, as I said the Eddie Hobbs approach of conjuring up an imaginary annuity is meaningless because of the way pensions are paid.
 

che schifo

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I think for the first time I actually heard someone ask the question, why can we not start dropping the cost of living in this country on many items we are been ripped off on. So many of us will never get a golden pension or be protected by unions, but we still have to pay exorbitant costs for everyday items.

When you hear the likes of the cost of items up in the north compared with here, including housing, cars, leisure, alcohol etc it makes me wonder, just who some people think they are. Earlier there was a speaker on about the 50% tax rate on Irish pay comes in at 70k€ while in Spain it is 300k€.

The cost of living here is just unmanageable for most people and you cannot have the wages always going up to cover the cost of high prices. Someone has to take the bull by the horns or some of us will be even more angry.
John Moran (ex Secretary general of dept. of finance) has been on rte this morning and newstalk just now talking about this. Worth a listen on playback.
 

making waves

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None of them should get a red cent until we are in surplus.
stop paying interest on the bailout loans and the country is in significant surplus

put on a 5% wealth tax on wealth over €1million and the country is in significant surplus

As for the OP - usual bash the public sector sh*te from patslatt
 

moycullen14

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John Moran (ex Secretary general of dept. of finance) has been on rte this morning and newstalk just now talking about this. Worth a listen on playback.
It is beyond a joke at this stage. Tax, USC, Insurance, College fees, Cars, ESB/GAS, property tax, etc, etc.

We bring in a healthy 6 figure gross to our house and with 3 kids (two of them in 3rd level) we are just about making ends meet.

Don't get me wrong, we are and we know we are, well off by Irish standards but it is getting harder and harder to balance the books.

I have no idea how people are managing.
 

wombat

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stop paying interest on the bailout loans and the country is in significant surplus
Great suggestion. On the following morning, where will the state borrow to fund daily spending?
 

Sister Mercedes

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The PS trade unions are engaged in a mad dash to get as many goodies in their basket before the trough shuts. Already Brexit is decimating border towns and crushing the food export market. But don't expect the PS obsessed Irish media to report on that.
 

Watcher2

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I think for the first time I actually heard someone ask the question, why can we not start dropping the cost of living in this country on many items we are been ripped off on. So many of us will never get a golden pension or be protected by unions, but we still have to pay exorbitant costs for everyday items.

When you hear the likes of the cost of items up in the north compared with here, including housing, cars, leisure, alcohol etc it makes me wonder, just who some people think they are. Earlier there was a speaker on about the 50% tax rate on Irish pay comes in at 70k€ while in Spain it is 300k€.

The cost of living here is just unmanageable for most people and you cannot have the wages always going up to cover the cost of high prices. Someone has to take the bull by the horns or some of us will be even more angry.
Exactly. I was thinking the same thing this morning when I heard this piece on the radio. Instead of increasing pay, the government should move to reduce costs of living. After all, they contribute to the cost of living in many areas with high VAT, levies, taxes etc. Lets see a restructuring of those to lift the burden on people rather than throwing money at a perceived problem.
 

firefly123

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Irish public sector pay is on average almost half as high again as the private sector average whereas both sectors enjoy roughly equal pay in France and Germany and UK public sector pay is 13% higher. Since there is no evidence that Irish public sector workers are more productive, their pay should be frozen until private sector pay can catch up. Given the pay premium of about 45%, the freeze would need to be in place till 2030. Alternatively, given this very long time horizon,a strong case can be made for public sector pay cuts to speed up the move to pay equality.

Given the generosity of present pay levels and gold plated pensions for the top half of the public sector, public sector unions' announced balloting for industrial action against Lansdowne Road agreement should be seen as a declaration of economic war on the private sector and an attempt to loot the country, a reactionary attempt to revive the strike crazed union activity of the inflationary 1970s.

Politically, the best solution for cutting costs would be to switch all public sector defined benefit pensions to defined contribution plans like most private sector pensions where the pension payments depend on annual contributions. Coming on top of the huge national debt, the burden of unfunded public sector DB plans threatens to bankrupt the state in maybe 15 years. Those unfunded plans are paid out of taxes on a pay as you go basis.

Should the unions succeed in grabbing more of Irish taxes in higher pay and pensions, that will take from the funding of hospitals and social welfare in a diversion of funding from the truly needy to the truly greedy.
Look can I just ask why this requires another new thread. Can we not discuss it on one of the (literally) dozens you have created which are a variation on the same theme?
 

making waves

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Great suggestion. On the following morning, where will the state borrow to fund daily spending?
The state doesn't need to borrow to fund daily spending - the government is spending $7billion a year on interest and has a budget deficit of less than $2.5billion.

Don't pay the interest and, not alone does the state not have to borrow anything, it would have €4.5billion to invest in the economy.
 


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