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Put the poor into communes ?


cyberianpan

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I was reading an excerpt from Barbara Ehrenreich's forthcoming book "This Land is Their Land: Reports From a Divided Nation " which oddly enough is in the WSJ
Could You Afford to Be Poor?

A 2006 study from the Brookings Institution documents the "ghetto tax," or higher cost of living in low-income urban neighborhoods. It comes at you from every direction, from food prices to auto insurance. A few examples from this study, by Matt Fellowes, that covered twelve American cities:

They are more likely to buy their furniture and appliances through pricey rent-to-own businesses. In Wisconsin, the study reports, a $200 rent-to-own TV set can cost $700 with the interest included.

Where would she get the first month's rent and security deposit it takes to pin down an apartment? The lack of that amount of capital—probably well over $1,000—condemned her to paying $40 a night at the Day's Inn.

This makes me thing ... at bottom level of society (on minimum wage, dole) surviving is hard. I'm not so sure the same social system ought to apply. Should the State organise communes for these poor ? So I'm thinking maybe 150 people in each community and a full time social worker as the commissar. The community could be in a tower block or out of town area. The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention). A lot of these indigent people lack basic life skills and they could do with some help . The commissar could could organise things such as communal cooking, sharing of property etc. I'm thinking the efficiencies gained would be

- higher quality of life for the poor
- lower cost to administer them(lower total dole, gardai)
- greater security for society through reduced crime

cYp
 

The Crook

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Sounds abit like you would only be creating a new ghetto for the poor and then trying to claim it would be in their interests to move into this ghetto.
 

cyberianpan

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The Crook said:
Sounds a bit like you would only be creating a new ghetto for the poor and then trying to claim it would be in their interests to move into this ghetto.
They could volunteer, the State would just need legislation and funding for an initial experiment. Methinks it is a win-win ?


Like if we are going to make dole payments let's try to see that all get the best value from it ?

cYp
 

daisylady

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Any changes in a community must come from with a community. Any sign of a outside authority trying to impose such things will not work as people will have no respect for that authority. The way forward is through education and healthcare. Also providing incentives for people who are from the communities to return once they have been educated/trained in order to continue the cycle. Employment can be created by setting up local help groups like a job seeker/start up buisness/financial advice centres. But these changes must heavily involve the target community.

The suggestion you made while interesting in an acedemic sense would not work as people would be hostile to such practices being imposed on them and would usurp them.

And there are plenty of lazy rich people who do not pay their taxes.
 

fergalr

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It'd be unconstitutional to compel people into these, and who would go voluntarily?
 

cyberianpan

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fergalr said:
It'd be unconstitutional to compel people into these, and who would go voluntarily?
Create a nice prospectus video for them. Hot meals, reduced anti-social behaviour, communal cooking, a cinema ...

Sure don't people volunteer for Big Brother all the time ?

Now afterwards if it was found to be a success we could examine the constitution and consider going beyond volunteers.

cYp
 
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cyberianpan said:
I was reading an excerpt from Barbara Ehrenreich's forthcoming book "This Land is Their Land: Reports From a Divided Nation " which oddly enough is in the WSJ
Could You Afford to Be Poor?

A 2006 study from the Brookings Institution documents the "ghetto tax," or higher cost of living in low-income urban neighborhoods. It comes at you from every direction, from food prices to auto insurance. A few examples from this study, by Matt Fellowes, that covered twelve American cities:

They are more likely to buy their furniture and appliances through pricey rent-to-own businesses. In Wisconsin, the study reports, a $200 rent-to-own TV set can cost $700 with the interest included.

Where would she get the first month's rent and security deposit it takes to pin down an apartment? The lack of that amount of capital—probably well over $1,000—condemned her to paying $40 a night at the Day's Inn.

This makes me thing ... at bottom level of society (on minimum wage, dole) surviving is hard. I'm not so sure the same social system ought to apply. Should the State organise communes for these poor ? So I'm thinking maybe 150 people in each community and a full time social worker as the commissar. The community could be in a tower block or out of town area. The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention). A lot of these indigent people lack basic life skills and they could do with some help . The commissar could could organise things such as communal cooking, sharing of property etc. I'm thinking the efficiencies gained would be

- higher quality of life for the poor
- lower cost to administer them(lower total dole, gardai)
- greater security for society through reduced crime

cYp
Put the poor into communes ?








They already have they're called council estates.
 

blinding

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It may be better for the powers that be to let the sleeping dog lie.If the poor were roused maybe they would be hard to get back into the box.The poor could if organised relieve the wealthy from their burden.We are told that goverments are allowed to rule only with the will of the people.
 

fergalr

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cyberianpan said:
fergalr said:
It'd be unconstitutional to compel people into these, and who would go voluntarily?
Create a nice prospectus video for them. Hot meals, reduced anti-social behaviour, communal cooking, a cinema ...

Sure don't people volunteer for Big Brother all the time ?

Now afterwards if it was found to be a success we could examine the constitution and consider going beyond volunteers.

cYp
Your bizarre commissar plan is blatantly unconstitutional, so no.
 

cyberianpan

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fergalr said:
cyberianpan said:
fergalr said:
It'd be unconstitutional to compel people into these, and who would go voluntarily?
Create a nice prospectus video for them. Hot meals, reduced anti-social behaviour, communal cooking, a cinema ...

Sure don't people volunteer for Big Brother all the time ?

Now afterwards if it was found to be a success we could examine the constitution and consider going beyond volunteers.

cYp
Your bizarre commissar plan is blatantly unconstitutional, so no.
No it is not.

People can sign up to whatever they want so long as it doesn't involve direct harm. Many people sign up to say the Catholic Church , which places enormous restrictions on your life. These people are free to sign up and free to leave.

cYp
 

The Crook

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cyberianpan said:
The Crook said:
Sounds a bit like you would only be creating a new ghetto for the poor and then trying to claim it would be in their interests to move into this ghetto.
They could volunteer, the State would just need legislation and funding for an initial experiment. Methinks it is a win-win ?


Like if we are going to make dole payments let's try to see that all get the best value from it ?

cYp
Put the poor into work houses?

They could volunteer, the State would just need legislation and funding for an initial experiment. Methinks it is a win-win ?


Like if we are going to make dole payments let's try to see that all get the best value from it ?
 

fergalr

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Bunreacht na hEireann said:
4. 1° No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law.
cyberianpan said:
The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention).
Care to square these two things? Of course, this is a nonsense thread... :roll:
 

GDPR

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fergalr said:
Bunreacht na hEireann said:
4. 1° No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law.
cyberianpan said:
The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention).
Care to square these two things? Of course, this is a nonsense thread... :roll:

Squaring those two things isnt the only problem. The rich and the poor have a symbiotic relationship. Whos going to do the nasty minimum wage work such as serving up hamburgers or cleaning up messes if the sources of menial labour for all this were in communes ?
 

Conor

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Moreover, how would one escape from these communes?
 

cyberianpan

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fergalr said:
Bunreacht na hEireann said:
4. 1° No citizen shall be deprived of his personal liberty save in accordance with law.
cyberianpan said:
The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention).
Care to square these two things? Of course, this is a nonsense thread... :roll:
I note you get abusive at times, it's not my fault that you are slow-witted.

A citizen can clearly abrogate their rights in multiple scenarios - with the understanding that they can exit the contract if they wish. So S&M bondage (surely a deprivation of personal liberty) is permissible on the basis that the submissive could call a halt. Similarly kids might chose to play a "cops & robbers" style game where the "robber" gets detained. As the saying goes: "Freedom is the right to choose your own chains".

The key point is that in experimental mode the subjects would be free to leave the commune - so if they didn't like being put in detention for anti-social behaviour - they could leave (Game over).

cYp
 
S

Starkadder

There was an attempt in the Victorian era to resettle poor people in
rural communes such as Starnthwaite in Westmoreland in order to provide them
with useful jobs. Would this be something similar?
 

fergalr

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cyberianpan said:
The key point is that in experimental mode the subjects would be free to leave the commune - so if they didn't like being put in detention for anti-social behaviour - they could leave (Game over).

cYp
This reminds me of the less than brilliant suggestion that someone made last year for some sort of agency that would monitor the implementation of campaign promises and issue some sort of censure if they weren't brought about. Utterly pointless and without a need behind it in the first place.
If a bunch of communists want to live in a commune together, then let them. As someone has already pointed out above, many of the poor in Ireland live together in sink estates and in tower flats.
 

cyberianpan

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Starkadder said:
There was an attempt in the Victorian era to resettle poor people in
rural communes such as Starnthwaite in Westmoreland in order to provide them
with useful jobs. Would this be something similar?
Along the lines of , as per the original Barbara Ehrenreich excerpt there are certain critical thresholds that the poor find difficulty breaching. Some might argue to give vouchers but I also note that many of the poor have poor life skills.

E.g. if you suddenly say made 20 couples, earning €50-100k per individual, redundant and confiscated their savings and put them into a new council estate ... I bet that the new council estate would be better run and a more pleasant than most other council estates.

So I'm proposing communes to help people who have limited capacity to help themselves. Now certainly it'd be nice for them to work and live in the country but that needn't be the only form.

I'm not so sure that simply handing out benefits is the smart thing to do for the poor - and so a small experiment to see what might work better would be good.

cYp
 

myk

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Messages
406
cyberianpan said:
I was reading an excerpt from Barbara Ehrenreich's forthcoming book "This Land is Their Land: Reports From a Divided Nation " which oddly enough is in the WSJ
Could You Afford to Be Poor?

A 2006 study from the Brookings Institution documents the "ghetto tax," or higher cost of living in low-income urban neighborhoods. It comes at you from every direction, from food prices to auto insurance. A few examples from this study, by Matt Fellowes, that covered twelve American cities:

They are more likely to buy their furniture and appliances through pricey rent-to-own businesses. In Wisconsin, the study reports, a $200 rent-to-own TV set can cost $700 with the interest included.

Where would she get the first month's rent and security deposit it takes to pin down an apartment? The lack of that amount of capital—probably well over $1,000—condemned her to paying $40 a night at the Day's Inn.

This makes me thing ... at bottom level of society (on minimum wage, dole) surviving is hard. I'm not so sure the same social system ought to apply. Should the State organise communes for these poor ? So I'm thinking maybe 150 people in each community and a full time social worker as the commissar. The community could be in a tower block or out of town area. The commissar would have extraordinary rights over the people (e.g. would be allowed to make curfew orders, put lazy people into detention). A lot of these indigent people lack basic life skills and they could do with some help . The commissar could could organise things such as communal cooking, sharing of property etc. I'm thinking the efficiencies gained would be

- higher quality of life for the poor
- lower cost to administer them(lower total dole, gardai)
- greater security for society through reduced crime

cYp
perhaps I am reading your suggestion wrong, but it appears to me that you are suggesting something akin to a concentration camp for poor people...
 
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