• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

PwC: Tax Is Top Threat


YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,225
I am already astonished by the role the big four audit firms have played in the crash of the Irish economy. But reading that PwC considers tax the most critical threat to business these days is rather mind boggling. PricewaterhouseCoopers is regularly contracted by the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and the government to conduct evaluations of public institutions and businesses. The conclusions reached by PwC are used by these institutions for the creation of new policy. Do they really have our best interest at heart? That's of course a more rhetorical question.
 


johnfás

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,727
Like all professional service firms the partner servicing a particular organisation has its best interests at heart. Different partners deal with different organisations (public sector, private company, public company etc). All the partners are internally competitive as the better their clients do the largest their share of the profit within the matrix of the partnership agreement. What would you propose, that the Government receive its financial advice from your local Maths teacher?
 

dariusguppy

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
7
Partnership structures vary from firm to firm, some have a more collegiate lockstep arrangement and some have a more individual "eat what you kill" approach. Therefore not all professional services firms are internally as competitive as described.
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,187
PWC are now telling us the most serious threat that we must fear.

This is the same PWC that auditted the banks and which produced absurd numbers on the cost of the bank guarantee.

This is the same PWC that got money from Pravda to tell us that Pravda was not a leech on the people.

PWC. Pricely, Wanquers, Comprimised.

Just last month the we praising the Pravda levy. And now they are saying the problem is taxes and levies. WDF is going on ?

Collection of hypocrites.
 
Last edited:

johnfás

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,727
Partnership structures vary from firm to firm, some have a more collegiate lockstep arrangement and some have a more individual "eat what you kill" approach. Therefore not all professional services firms are internally as competitive as described.
Every large professional services practice in the country has a weighted profit share arrangement on top of basic profit share. You don't get pure percentage splits anywhere outside of mid and small firms. That and every partner has his/her individual professional reputation to trade on.
 
D

Dylan2010

This is the same PWC that got money from Pravda to tell us that Pravda was not a leech on the people.
I don't have the time now, but a thread ripping this report apart would be amusing, I believe RTE used the term "independent" lol
 

daveL

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,591
I am already astonished by the role the big four audit firms have played in the crash of the Irish economy. But reading that PwC considers tax the most critical threat to business these days is rather mind boggling. PricewaterhouseCoopers is regularly contracted by the Central Bank, the Financial Regulator and the government to conduct evaluations of public institutions and businesses. The conclusions reached by PwC are used by these institutions for the creation of new policy. Do they really have our best interest at heart? That's of course a more rhetorical question.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Was there ever a time that the burden of taxation was a positive for commerce, trade or business?

When was this time?

What did you expect their conclusions regarding business dealing with possible increases in taxation to be?
 

daveL

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,591
PWC are now telling us the most serious threat that we must fear.

This is the same PWC that auditted the banks and which produced absurd numbers on the cost of the bank guarantee.

This is the same PWC that got money from Pravda to tell us that Pravda was not a leech on the people.

PWC. Pricely, Wanquers, Continually.
Yes PWS are an old boy's club full of selfish tossers

Grand

But when did any business ever welcome increases in taxation?

I'm more aghast that PWC felt the need to conduct such analysis
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,187
The Untouchables by Ross & Webb, concerning PWC. P 123. [ ISBN 978-1-844-88277-9]

Price Waterhouse Coopers (PWC) are particularly well got with the Soldiers of destiny. One of it's partners, Fergal O'Rourke is Mary O'Rourke's son, and a cousin of the late Brian Lenihan, and Conoro Lenihan. In 2001, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern gave the firm a big suitcase that was full of documents going back sixteen years. He asked the form to produce an income and expenditure statement for the St Luke's constintuency office. PWC managing partner Ronan Murhphy appeared at the Mahon Tribunal in May 2008, describing the work on what was known as "project Luke".

In mid Sept 2008, the Financial Regulator hired PWC to investigate the state of the banks. Having crunched the numbers, PWC tolfd the government that Anglo, INBS, and IL&P faced a 'stressed case' possibility of 5 Billion in bad loands...The banks could be fixed for an affordable 5 Billion. This was a pivotal call before the cathastrophic bank guarantee".
While PWC was running the rule over the Irish banks, it's Belfast office was also auditting Sean Quinn's empire. Quinn was Anglo's biggest shareholder, and it's largest borrower - his companies owed Anglo up to 2.8 Billion on Anglo. The audit firm was also involved in setting up a convoluted scheme whereby a variety of offshore companies were to be used to secretly buy up a stake in Anglo.
PWC are useless. I would not ask them for directions.
 
Last edited:

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,187
A lot of tax money in Ireland is wasted.

Wasted on services of useless "professional" consultancy organizations that have a track record of getting it badly wrong.

Did they mention that ?
 

Auld Cynic

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
3,092
Taxation in general is always a threat to any economy. When work is taxed at the level at which it is now taxed it is no wonder that those who can afford it are stepping back from any meaningful work altogether until tax comes down again. High tax is a drain on every facet of enterprise not just from the viewpoint of the employer but in the case of the employee too. There is no incentive to work hard when nearly 60% of what one earns is forcibly extracted at source not to mention 33% of one's interest on money in the bank. Policies must change if we don't want to remain a socialist basket case owning banks, taxing our people out of existence and borrowing to keep public servants in the manner to which they've become all too accustomed.
 

daveL

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
19,591
Taxation in general is always a threat to any economy. When work is taxed at the level at which it is now taxed it is no wonder that those who can afford it are stepping back from any meaningful work altogether until tax comes down again. High tax is a drain on every facet of enterprise not just from the viewpoint of the employer but in the case of the employee too. There is no incentive to work hard when nearly 60% of what one earns is forcibly extracted at source.
pfffft

this is P.ie

The only thing that matters is who penned the report
 
Last edited:
D

Dylan2010

A lot of tax money in Ireland is wasted.

Wasted on services of useless "professional" consultancy organizations that have a track record of getting it badly wrong.

Did they mention that ?
Imagine the gov set out that CT would be 10% of your GAAP accounting profits no reliefs, no add backs. The tax dept would be jumping out of their shiny offices into the Liffey :D
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,225
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Was there ever a time that the burden of taxation was a positive for commerce, trade or business?

When was this time?

What did you expect their conclusions regarding business dealing with possible increases in taxation to be?

If you only tax the middle class you will not have the demand to drive business simple as. It's not rocket science.

To portray tax primarily as a threat is single minded and exemplifies the selfish nature of the PwC philosophy. Who is going to pay for schools, police, airports, roads, hospitals ...?
 

johnfás

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,727
Imagine the gov set out that CT would be 10% of your GAAP accounting profits no reliefs, no add backs. The tax dept would be jumping out of their shiny offices into the Liffey :D
Why would the Government want to do something that would likely reduce its corporate and employee tax take?
 
D

Dylan2010

Why would the Government want to do something that would likely reduce its corporate and employee tax take?
if you look at all forms of taxation the complexity has multiplied over the decades to the point where it would nearly be impossible for 2 sets of tax accountants to get the same result with a corporate's tax return. at some point it might be better off dumping the tax rules and starting again. I do my wife's accounts and there are stupid calculations I have to do which don't make a material difference now multiply it across a huge company and you suddenly have slowed down how a company operates trying to comply with the dumb rules.
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,225
if you look at all forms of taxation the complexity has multiplied over the decades to the point where it would nearly be impossible for 2 sets of tax accountants to get the same result with a corporate's tax return. at some point it might be better off dumping the tax rules and starting again. I do my wife's accounts and there are stupid calculations I have to do which don't make a material difference now multiply it across a huge company and you suddenly have slowed down how a company operates trying to comply with the dumb rules.
I think when you take a careful look at the corporate tax rate in Ireland it's fully transparent and simple: 12.5%. But the tax avoidance or tax minimization rules can be complex. No surprise that you might find them dumb.
 
D

Dylan2010

I think when you take a careful look at the corporate tax rate in Ireland it's fully transparent and simple: 12.5%. But the tax avoidance or tax minimization rules can be complex. No surprise that you might find them dumb.
sure but even the bread and butter stuff is off the wall. untangling whether 1000's of companies in the country are making repairs to their staff canteen or improving it or having dumb rules on the capital allowance for a computer might be interesting if you have nothing better to do with your time but total its just one person digging a hole and the other person refilling it.
 

johnfás

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,727
I think when you take a careful look at the corporate tax rate in Ireland it's fully transparent and simple: 12.5%. But the tax avoidance or tax minimization rules can be complex. No surprise that you might find them dumb.
Most tax avoidance measures are pretty straightforward. We tax profits, therefore if Company A makes a loss in previous years it can set that off against future tax. We tax profits, therefore if the IP associated with the activities associated with Company A are owned by Company B it is possible to reduce the profit (and therefore the tax paid) in Ireland by Company A if Company B is incorporated outside the jurisdiction and Company A pays a royalty to Company B. We think that its good for businesses to invest productively in Ireland, therefore we implement capital allowance schemes against such investment. These are the basic tax minimisation rules applied by most companies in Ireland.

Then we have the quirks of international tax law; not Irish tax law. There is a distinction between the rules regarding the domicile of companies for tax purposes in Ireland and the USA. Companies which are incorporated in the USA pay tax in the USA. Companies that have their main base of control in Ireland pay tax in Ireland. Some companies (famously Apple) have managed to incorporate companies in Ireland but control them in the USA thereby avoiding the rules entirely. Simple answer, the USA could pass a law tomorrow stating that companies which are controlled or incorporated in the USA pay tax there.
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
7,225
Most tax avoidance measures are pretty straightforward. We tax profits, therefore if Company A makes a loss in previous years it can set that off against future tax. We tax profits, therefore if the IP associated with the activities associated with Company A are owned by Company B it is possible to reduce the profit (and therefore the tax paid) in Ireland by Company A if Company B is incorporated outside the jurisdiction and Company A pays a royalty to Company B. We think that its good for businesses to invest productively in Ireland, therefore we implement capital allowance schemes against such investment. These are the basic tax minimisation rules applied by most companies in Ireland.

Then we have the quirks of international tax law; not Irish tax law. There is a distinction between the rules regarding the domicile of companies for tax purposes in Ireland and the USA. Companies which are incorporated in the USA pay tax in the USA. Companies that have their main base of control in Ireland pay tax in Ireland. Some companies (famously Apple) have managed to incorporate companies in Ireland but control them in the USA thereby avoiding the rules entirely. Simple answer, the USA could pass a law tomorrow stating that companies which are controlled or incorporated in the USA pay tax there.
you already sound like Feargal O'Rourke. The double Irish is an Irish construct that is a prerequisite for the transfer payment. No double Irish, no tax "avoidance". Whether or not the company is controlled from Reno, Nevada or not physically present is irrelevant.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top