Question for FG/FF supporters

Northsideman

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We have two parties, three bits of parties and a plethora of cranks, misfits and mental defectives.

If we reject the two parties, to whom should we turn to form a stable government?
And therein lies the problem for the left, they are all over the place, fighting with each other and just coming out with complete shit that would turn the country into Venezuela mark II. The Labour party pretended to be leftist but are shysters par excellence and they all did well out of it, look at Fat Pat now creaming it. The fact there ain't an alternative is solely the fault of the left.
 


Baron von Biffo

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One of the problems with hospitals is that they are not just for treating sick people but the employment they create is the equivalent of a decent sized factory in a town. Vincents or James may not be noticeable in Dublin but PortLaois certainly will be. I still think the best we can hope for will be incremental changes and I'm not convinced that changing minister makes much difference.
It really isn't the case that most people want to retain hospitals because they provide employment.

No doubt business owners here (Portlaoise) look at hospitals, or any other largish employers in the town and see them as underpinning their livelihood.

For the rest of though, the local hospital means a place where we can get timely treatment close to our families and friends and in some cases, like my own, it means we won't die in an ambulance en route to the hospital that replaced ours.

Dublin based commentators who have several hospitals close where they live, all of them served by public transport, seem completely unable to grasp how important local health services are to the rest of us.
 

Baron von Biffo

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To be fair there is an argument to be made that the private sector side of the health service works best. I think it's a bit like the education system. It's design of stand alone Catholic schools presents problems in a modern era . However these stand alone schools are cheaper to run than state schools and to disentangle the system and start again is too complicated. It's a shame FG/lab didn't use the opportunity of the crash to start it again.
Private hospitals can specialise in a relatively small number of ailments and they can ensure that they have the resources to treat them.

The public system by contrast, must take all comers but resources are unpredictable and seldom adequate.
 

Baron von Biffo

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And therein lies the problem for the left, they are all over the place, fighting with each other and just coming out with complete shit that would turn the country into Venezuela mark II. The Labour party pretended to be leftist but are shysters par excellence and they all did well out of it, look at Fat Pat now creaming it. The fact there ain't an alternative is solely the fault of the left.
It's also the problem of democracy that form is more important than substance.

To be fair to Lab, between '92 and '97 they implemented almost everything they had in their manifesto yet they were hammered at the following election because they coalesced with FF for the first half of that term.
 

Northsideman

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It's also the problem of democracy that form is more important than substance.

To be fair to Lab, between '92 and '97 they implemented almost everything they had in their manifesto yet they were hammered at the following election because they coalesced with FF for the first half of that term.
I find it impossible to be fair to Labour, they are total flip floppers and lying bastards is not an unfair description. Now I know they were part of a coalition but they also knew they would be prior to every election and failed to state what they would do in such a situation. The farce now where parties out forward platforms for what they will in power and then flip flop in coalition is crazy. Each should publish their red line issues and if then then transgress they deserve to be hammered. Let's see some reality and show us the red lines.

Gilmore for Taoiseach :)
 

mangaire2

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Dear party supporters
Do you mind telling me why anybody should vote for your parties based on the state of the health service?
You have been involved in every government in this state as the major party. Only once did you not have finance
I appreciate that the health service is still way better than it was before the Celtic tiger started .
I am a teacher so hardly qualified to work out what's wrong with the service overall but I am outraged by the following
Kids not getting speech therapy at a crucial time in their lives
Waiting lists bugger than the UK despite variance in population
Cancer patients getting worse treatment because of no insurance.
The same applies to those with arthritis who are often just given neurifin if they have no access to a consultant
I'm pretty certain most of my facts are spot on.
Why oh why should we give you four more years based on the above ??
health isn't the only factor that determines how people vote.
have never voted FG & never will, & it really has nothing to do with the health services.

ok - you won't vote for FG or FF because of the state of the health services.
so, what party will provide us with a better health services, well as all the other services that the State provides ?
 

riker1969

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health isn't the only factor that determines how people vote.
have never voted FG & never will, & it really has nothing to do with the health services.

ok - you won't vote for FG or FF because of the state of the health services.
so, what party will provide us with a better health services, well as all the other services that the State provides ?
Thought provoking post. Let me think it over
 

MVOR

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It’s interesting to see the FFFG lot attempt to defend the status quo and throw scorn over any alternative here. Just keep saying its unaffordable and nobody can fix it, to try will make it worse. The truth is we have one of the best funded health systems in the world but much of it is wasted.

There are doctors with multiple secretaries, there’s an industry in the administration of each hospital. How many relatives and friends of FFFG are employed in cushy numbers within the HSE? Take the children’s hospital, 4bn and counting, located in the most ridiculous location and why, because someone got a nice big backhander. There is simply no other explanation. Everyone can see the site makes no sense and the money involved is obscene yet FFFG both said keep going, we can make more money from the tribunals later (Minister for Homelessness Dad did very well in the past).

If you want the HSE sorted then you need a complete change in the Dail, where the relatives and friends no longer count, the backhanders are gone and where you owe nobody anything so you can hit the restart button. Cut the admin, hire more nurses and doctors, give them realistic shift patterns but manage them better so they’re working shorter hours but being more efficient. Have a greater range of facilities so less people have to go to A&E, e.g. have more facilities like VHIs swiftcare around the country. Offer tax refunds at the marginal rate for those who use private facilities. remove the BIK on private health insurance and encourage more employers to pay for it.

Regarding hospitals in every county, we have lots of hospitals, they should all be put to good use. Much better to pay nurses and doctors to operate hospitals than the the private security firm owned by the crony to protect the empty shell for years. Locate more outside of Dublin, its much easier for an ambulance to get a person from Dublin to a hospital in Kildare or Meath than get them into or across Dublin. Much cheaper too for the staff to live outside Dublin.
 

wombat

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It really isn't the case that most people want to retain hospitals because they provide employment.

No doubt business owners here (Portlaoise) look at hospitals, or any other largish employers in the town and see them as underpinning their livelihood.
.
I accept that most people worry that downgrading their local hospital services will put their lives in danger but for every patient who's life is saved by fast access to their local hospital, another will have treatment delayed because of lack of expertise. It took a major campaign by the HSE (one of their successes) to convince cancer patients that their prospects were better by travelling to a centre of excellence. The political problem with cancelling services in a local hospital is the campaign that vested interests will run in opposition.
 

Baron von Biffo

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I accept that most people worry that downgrading their local hospital services will put their lives in danger but for every patient who's life is saved by fast access to their local hospital, another will have treatment delayed because of lack of expertise.
This is getting into 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' territory.

Sub-optimal treatment that saves a life is better than world class treatment that you don't survive to benefit from.

A combination of the progression of my illness and the downgrading of Portlaoise hospital over the years means that when I have an acute episode now I can no longer be fully treated here.

What happens is I'm brought to Portlaoise A&E where I'm stabilised and admitted to ICU. There I'll wait until there's a bed available in James'.

In the past I've waited over a week but I wouldn't have survived the ambulance journey if I had to be brought there first.

It took a major campaign by the HSE (one of their successes) to convince cancer patients that their prospects were better by travelling to a centre of excellence.
Cancer is a slow burn illness. Treatment can be planned for several weeks or months ahead. You typically don't need emergency care.

That makes centres of excellence a good idea. You can appreciate though, why people would be fearful of the loss of services in their own area when they're offered what's essentially a pig in a poke.

There was no way of knowing in advance that the proposed centres, while theoretically a good idea, would be adequately resourced and operated to allow them to live up to their promise.

All people could see were promises from government and the knowledge that political promised are not always honoured.

The political problem with cancelling services in a local hospital is the campaign that vested interests will run in opposition.
We have a legitimate vested interest in retaining the service that may save our lives.
 

Barroso

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The glaring flaw in that nonsense is that if the raison d'etre of the health system is to support the income of doctors, why are we unable to fill so many posts at the top of the salary scale?
First, I didn't say "doctors at the top of the salary scale", I said doctors.
A GMS doctor makes a lot of money; depending in first place on how many patients s/he has, and then going on from there. They work public and private alike; they have all sorts of costs paid out of the public purse. I remember hearing of one GP who put an electronic gate on his drive, and had that paid for out of the public purse. That's not hearsay, BTW.

At the top of the salary scale, we have the consultants; and they can make a lot of money in the private sector, so I'd suggest that this is why it is difficult to replace them - if that is the case. I know that it used to be very different, when the old contracts were available, and a public position was a licence to print money from private practice.

Perhaps we need to produce more doctors? After all it is pretty much of a closed shop, and our population is growing. I don't know if more spaces have been provided in the medical schools, perhaps you have been keeping an eye on this.
It may be that the changeover from the mixed contract to the public only contract was not properly planned for; this would not be a surprise. You might remember about 15 years ago when nursing was made a 4-year degree course, and there was one year when no trained nurses at all came onto the job market? One of Harney's brainfarts, IIRC.
Overall, our public service doesn't do planning very well. We complain for years and years, and then all of a sudden a decision is made and implemented without the proper planning having been made in the interim. Do you think that Microsoft and Intel would be where they are if they worked this way?
 

shiel

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I find it impossible to be fair to Labour, they are total flip floppers and lying bastards is not an unfair description. Now I know they were part of a coalition but they also knew they would be prior to every election and failed to state what they would do in such a situation. The farce now where parties out forward platforms for what they will in power and then flip flop in coalition is crazy. Each should publish their red line issues and if then then transgress they deserve to be hammered. Let's see some reality and show us the red lines.
Gilmore for Taoiseach :)
Labour did not bankrupt the country.

The issue that effects all of us now is what government is going to be elected.

How that plays into our standard of living and how we hope it continues to rescue us from the biggest calamity to damage all of us since independence - the collapse and bailout in 2010.

The comparison of what is available is a government which took over a reasonably solvent country in 1997 and left it spectacularly bankrupt in 2010 and a government which took over the spectacularly bankrupt country in 2011 and turned it round.

I am sorry that the Irish media have turned that debate into a personal attack on the Taoiseach calling him an arrogant, half Indian, queer, black and tan.

The level of the debate at that level might even work but if it does what does that say about us?
 

Northsideman

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Labour did not bankrupt the country.

The issue that effects all of us now is what government is going to be elected.

How that plays into our standard of living and how we hope it continues to rescue us from the biggest calamity to damage all of us since independence - the collapse and bailout in 2010.

The comparison of what is available is a government which took over a reasonably solvent country in 1997 and left it spectacularly bankrupt in 2010 and a government which took over the spectacularly bankrupt country in 2011 and turned it round.

I am sorry that the Irish media have turned that debate into a personal attack on the Taoiseach calling him an arrogant, half Indian, queer, black and tan.

The level of the debate at that level might even work but if it does what does that say about us?
What media outlet referred to him in those terms? Take your time.
 
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offalypat

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You are correct, the health service is an absolute shambles and needs drastic reform to deal with an aging population.
But you fail to acknowledge the excellent care that many patients get while in the system.
What health minister will do whats necessary???
So what's on offer from the others?
You know right well that no party will have the guts to take on the health unions as no party will get anywhere near an over all majority for some time.
Lab will be far too small, SF have an abysmal record in NI if you look at the state of the health service there and the Indos are far too fragmented.
is that why people in the south are able to go up to the northern ireland consultants and get treatment and the irish government are able to pay for it.
 

the secretary

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is that why people in the south are able to go up to the northern ireland consultants and get treatment and the irish government are able to pay for it.
Are you saying that things are great in NI?
Weren't the nurses on strike there a few weeks ago! Waiting lists are a joke when compared to the rest of the UK.
 

Baron von Biffo

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First, I didn't say "doctors at the top of the salary scale", I said doctors.
Fair enough. I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

A GMS doctor makes a lot of money; depending in first place on how many patients s/he has, and then going on from there. They work public and private alike; they have all sorts of costs paid out of the public purse. I remember hearing of one GP who put an electronic gate on his drive, and had that paid for out of the public purse. That's not hearsay, BTW.
It's the very definition of hearsay.

At the top of the salary scale, we have the consultants; and they can make a lot of money in the private sector, so I'd suggest that this is why it is difficult to replace them - if that is the case. I know that it used to be very different, when the old contracts were available, and a public position was a licence to print money from private practice.
So we had an old contract under which we could fill all the vacancies. Then we changed to a new contract and we can no longer fill all the vacancies.

It's a long shot I know, but is there any possibility that the two are linked?

Perhaps we need to produce more doctors? After all it is pretty much of a closed shop, and our population is growing. I don't know if more spaces have been provided in the medical schools, perhaps you have been keeping an eye on this.
It may be that the changeover from the mixed contract to the public only contract was not properly planned for; this would not be a surprise. You might remember about 15 years ago when nursing was made a 4-year degree course, and there was one year when no trained nurses at all came onto the job market? One of Harney's brainfarts, IIRC.
We're already producing more doctors than we need. The problem is they won't work here because pay and conditions are shite compared to what they can get abroad.

Overall, our public service doesn't do planning very well. We complain for years and years, and then all of a sudden a decision is made and implemented without the proper planning having been made in the interim. Do you think that Microsoft and Intel would be where they are if they worked this way?
That's a really stupid question.

If the health service was run the way Microsoft or Intel or any other business is run we'd have hospitals offering only such treatments as they could make a profit on and only where there was a large enough customer base. People with the 'wrong' illnesses or the wrong address would be told to FOAD.

Add to that the fact that the managers of businesses don't face daily interrogation by the press and a bunch of their hostile peers and they don't have to be re-elected by an electorate that includes professional standard morons.
 

riker1969

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First, I didn't say "doctors at the top of the salary scale", I said doctors.
A GMS doctor makes a lot of money; depending in first place on how many patients s/he has, and then going on from there. They work public and private alike; they have all sorts of costs paid out of the public purse. I remember hearing of one GP who put an electronic gate on his drive, and had that paid for out of the public purse. That's not hearsay, BTW.

At the top of the salary scale, we have the consultants; and they can make a lot of money in the private sector, so I'd suggest that this is why it is difficult to replace them - if that is the case. I know that it used to be very different, when the old contracts were available, and a public position was a licence to print money from private practice.

Perhaps we need to produce more doctors? After all it is pretty much of a closed shop, and our population is growing. I don't know if more spaces have been provided in the medical schools, perhaps you have been keeping an eye on this.
It may be that the changeover from the mixed contract to the public only contract was not properly planned for; this would not be a surprise. You might remember about 15 years ago when nursing was made a 4-year degree course, and there was one year when no trained nurses at all came onto the job market? One of Harney's brainfarts, IIRC.
Overall, our public service doesn't do planning very well. We complain for years and years, and then all of a sudden a decision is made and implemented without the proper planning having been made in the interim. Do you think that Microsoft and Intel would be where they are if they worked this way?
If the doctor's gig is so good why does the state have such difficulties filling in rural schemes ?
 

riker1969

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I heard Tony O 'Brien ex head of HSE on the radio. He at least knows alot about the health service unlike most of us. He said if slainte care is rolled out it will take 10 years to implement.
I have heard the same length for housing. My main beef about housing is why are not more modular houses being built. Families should not be in hotel rooms.
 

Gwannow

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The strangest thing about Ireland is that we have a manageable country by its size. Yet we do not have people who are capable of doing that. People here need to demand more from their political representatives, instead of just the beauty contest that is the General Election. We are too easy on our politicians here. It seems not one of them is ever held accountable for anything.
 

riker1969

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In
The strangest thing about Ireland is that we have a manageable country by its size. Yet we do not have people who are capable of doing that. People here need to demand more from their political representatives, instead of just the beauty contest that is the General Election. We are too easy on our politicians here. It seems not one of them is ever held accountable for anything.
You have a point. Though to be fair it really wasn't until the 1980s that the state seriously thought about a national health service. It wasn't official policy to provide health care for all until then. Most EU nation's had a good 30 year start.
Our political structure with it's multi seat constituency doesn't help. Politicians will resign over hospital closures because they will lose their seat otherwise
We need more politicians with safer seats to make national decisions.
A list system would be better or a combination of large single seat constituencies and a list system
But I find it amusing how people attack the HSE or those trying to build houses while simultaneously telling politicians to keep small hospitals open or objecting to local housing because it's near them. Politicians know they have to back upset locals or they are out. Even if such decisions cause more issues.
 


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