Rapid rise in 'sham marriages'

Kevin Parlon

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Yesterday, as I was driving home through the Sydney rush hour, our PM gave her 5 minute Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the ruling Labor Party. Amongst other things, she spoke of a reassessment of Australian policy with regard to the asylum process as it is now operating (people who are willing and able to enter the country illegally, then applying) with the balance shifting towards offering asylum through UN programs and eliminating (insofar as that is possible) the current system which favors those with a willingness to break the law and the money to give effect to that. That is, actually granting asylum to those that need it as opposed to those who simply want out of their current country (the opposite of what's happening in Ireland for the last 10 years). Can you imagine Eamonski coming out with that? Biffo? Inda?

Then this morning I read this: Registrar warns of rapid rise in 'sham marriages' - The Irish Times - Tue, Aug 17, 2010 or what will probably become Irish Born Child Mark 2.

I was struck by the difference in discourse between Ireland and Australia on this. I married an Australian citizen here a few years ago (whilst legally resident of course! :) ). I was free to marry, but gaining residency on the basis of that relationship took several thousand dollars, hundreds of documents, photos, officially witnessed statements from 3rd parties, utility bills and wills showing long term cohabitation and commitment and two, personally intrusive interviews. It wasn't pleasant, but I had nothing to fear from the process and recognized it's importance. I was struck by how highly Australians protect and value the right of residency here. It was solemn and serious process.

Our country has already been transformed under our feet with very large and growing communities of people with no relationship to Ireland. They came uninvited and it doesn't seem our political class paused to ponder whether this was somethign we wanted or needed or should accept. The impact this has had on quality of life has already been felt with pressure on infrastructure, crime and quite simply the nature of our society which in places now resembles a different country (to say as much now in 'polite company' is to commit a sin). Those who raise concerns are tut-tutted at best and immediatley screeched down by the left and the politically correct at worst.

Why is it we seem unable to hold the right of residency in our country with the value it surely deserves? Why aren't we protecting it? Have we (people who regard unfettered third world immigation as being a problem) simply been cowed into submission? Is the prime driver for this the new ECJ administered religion of self hating Political Correctness or is it somethign Irish or both?

In Ireland, I guess this latest gross abuse of our ability to control who comes to the country will be met by collective shrugs. In Australia, well, it just couldn't happen.
 
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pinemartin

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Our country has already been transformed under our feet with very large and growing communities of people with no relationship to Ireland.
substitute Australia for Ireland and look in the mirror. You obviously have had an irony bypass if you cant see the ridiculousness of your post.

In Ireland, I guess this latest gross abuse of our ability to control who comes to the country will be met by collective shrugs. In Australia, well, it just couldn't happen.
they let you in didn't they?
 

Kevin Parlon

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@PineMatin: I'll ignore the ad hominem cat scracthing (once) and let you know that I came to be in Australia as a result of public policy (to attract suitably aged and skilled migrants). That is, a decision made by government as voted by the populace to provide for the entry of appropriately skilled persons for the benefit of Australia itself. If I may also draw your attention to the fact that you've immediatley attacked me and not engaged in any of the central points of the post and by doing so have aptly demonstrated the screech-down defence I alluded to. Happy to debate with you if you can be civil. I am trying to engage in a dicsussion on Irish attitudes to the value of residency in Ireland. Not me, or the first fleet, or 18th century British policy in the southern hemisphere.
 

Eye of Angkor

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The Government fought a case to Luxembourg which it lost in grand style. However there is nothing in EU law to prevent the State from combatting this phenonemon successfully.

Sham marriages are simply another example of Irish "regulation".
 

pinemartin

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@PineMatin: I'll ignore the ad hominem cat scracthing (once) and let you know that I came to be in Australia as a result of public policy (to attract suitably aged and skilled migrants). That is, a decision made by government as voted by the populace to provide for the entry of appropriately skilled persons for the benefit of Australia itself. If I may also draw your attention to the fact that you've immediatley attacked me and not engaged in any of the central points of the post and by doing so have aptly demonstrated the screech-down defence I alluded to. Happy to debate with you if you can be civil. I am trying to engage in a dicsussion on Irish attitudes to the value of residency in Ireland. Not me, or the first fleet, or 18th century British policy in the southern hemisphere.


you said people came uninvited to Ireland, how do you know this? Most I would say got here legally and above board, anyone with valid visa has as much right to be here as you had to be in Australia. All people who get married in the state i would assume(i dont know for sure) have a valid visa. It says at the end of the article that the garda are arresting people for this offence so you can be assured that things are being done.
 

Chrisco

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Even if every single one of the Pakistani, Indian, and Nigerian marriages was sham, you are still only talking about 400 people: hardly what you'd call a crisis.

Your main problem seems to be in the main with the people who are here legally, as part of our government's policy, as in Australia.

So what's your point?
 

Kevin Parlon

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Even if every single one of the Pakistani, Indian, and Nigerian marriages was sham, you are still only talking about 400 people: hardly what you'd call a crisis.

Your main problem seems to be in the main with the people who are here legally, as part of our government's policy, as in Australia.

So what's your point?
Firstly, I didn't say it was a crisis. Secondly, I have no problem with people legally resident in Ireland. So, that kind of undermines your second question. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase it? To answer it anyway, my point (it apparantly isn't clear) is that it is simplicity itself to attain residency in Ireland through a fake marriage. It is possible to stop this (I gave a personal, Australian example) so 1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
 

Kevin Parlon

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you said people came uninvited to Ireland, how do you know this? Most I would say got here legally and above board, anyone with valid visa has as much right to be here as you had to be in Australia. All people who get married in the state i would assume(i dont know for sure) have a valid visa. It says at the end of the article that the garda are arresting people for this offence so you can be assured that things are being done.
Occam's razor helps here. Of people who have gained residency as a result regularisation (only becoming legally resident after the fact) by means of asylum or loop holes or both, is it more likley that a) they were invited to do so by the Irish state or b) that they took advantage of those loopholes because Ireland was a better place to live than where they were? ....... Thank you.

The fact that the Gardai are trying to get involved here underlines the problem. The process to control abuse/shamming is missing.
 

pinemartin

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Firstly, I didn't say it was a crisis. Secondly, I have no problem with people legally resident in Ireland. So, that kind of undermines your second question. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase it? To answer it anyway, my point (it apparantly isn't clear) is that it is simplicity itself to attain residency in Ireland through a fake marriage. It is possible to stop this (I gave a personal, Australian example) so 1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
why did you call these people uninvited? did you get an invitation to go to Australia? I dont understand how your situation is different from theirs. If you have no problem with people who are here legally and the garda are arresting people who are engaging in scam marriages , I would say that you should be satisfied.
 

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Kevin Parlon is absolutely correct. As with the Citizenship loophole before 2004, the govt didn't have its eye on the ball when agreeing to this measure. The govt could have opted out from this but chose not to. The fact that 1/3rd of the non-EU marriages are between Pakistanis and Latvians confirms the earlier report by Jim Cusack about how Pakistanis were bribing Latvians to marry them in order to gain resisdency within the EU. The refusal of the Commission of the govt's calls for changes to the Freedom of Movement Directive to prevent it's exploitation for immigration-purposes underlines the elitism of the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels who increasingly are dictating public-policy with the ECJ without any democratic accountability whatsoever. The reported numbers of sham-marriages reported is - as ever with reported-crime - likely to be the mere tip of the ice-berg. These people were detected because they weren't able to convince the registrars. More savvy scam-artists will have taken necessary precautions to avoid detection. A new offence is needed in Irish criminal-law of being in receipt of monies to contract sham-marriages with non-EEA citizens. These Latvians and others need to learn that crimes doesn't pay. Expect the PC-brigade and the Labour Party to condemn any crackdown.
 
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mr_anderson

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Let them marry and give them EU citzenship, but stipulate that it can be recinded if the marriage fails in the first 10 years.
It may also be worthwhile to make it a jailing offence for any EU citizen who marries under such false pretences.
 

Kevin Parlon

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why did you call these people uninvited? did you get an invitation to go to Australia? I dont understand how your situation is different from theirs. If you have no problem with people who are here legally and the garda are arresting people who are engaging in scam marriages , I would say that you should be satisfied.
I think you missed my earlier post by 2 minutes.
 

pinemartin

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Occam's razor helps here. Of people who have gained residency as a result regularisation (only becoming legally resident after the fact) by means of asylum or loop holes or both, is it more likley that a) they were invited to do so by the Irish state or b) that they took advantage of those loopholes because Ireland was a better place to live than where they were? ....... Thank you.

The fact that the Gardai are trying to get involved here underlines the problem. The process to control abuse/shamming is missing.
most of the people that came here came here legally, they did not need to avail of loopholes, they were never illegal.You seem to want to associate them with not being invited or being illegal, your statement saying they were uninvited is an indication of your attitude to immigrants, nothing more. Why don't you just admit it, its pretty obvious.

The legal loopholes for you to get into australia were advantageous to you so that you could live in a place that I presume you think is better than ireland.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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most of the people that came here came here legally, they did not need to avail of loopholes, they were never illegal.You seem to want to associate them with not being invited or being illegal, your statement saying they were uninvited is an indication of your attitude to immigrants, nothing more. Why don't you just admit it, its pretty obvious.

The legal loopholes for you to get into australia were advantageous to you so that you could live in a place that I presume you think is better than ireland.
The reason they didn't come here illegally is because marriage to an EU citizen automatically allows them to live within the EU, thereby removing the need for illegal-travel. It still constitutes a loophole that must be closed. As for your attack on KP's 'attitude to immigrants', it has nothing to do with racism, but to an abuse of process whereby the institution of marriage is being corrupted just as citizenship used to be by the exploitation of loopholes to twist their purposes to one of simply gaining residency in this country. The Left want to close down discussion on immigration-control but unfortunately for them, the writ of the Irish Times and RAR do not run online. ;)
 

pinemartin

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The reason they didn't come here illegally is because marriage to an EU citizen automatically allows them to live within the EU, thereby removing the need for illegal-travel. It still constitutes a loophole that must be closed. As for your attack on KP's 'attitude to immigrants', it has nothing to do with racism, but to an abuse of process whereby the institution of marriage is being corrupted just as citizenship used to be by the exploitation of loopholes to twist their purposes to one of simply gaining residency in this country. The Left want to close down discussion on immigration-control but unfortunately for them, the writ of the Irish Times and RAR do not run online. ;)
but they were here before they were married, this is what the thread is about. marriages in Ireland not people coming here as married couples..
 

Chrisco

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The reason they didn't come here illegally is because marriage to an EU citizen automatically allows them to live within the EU, thereby removing the need for illegal-travel. It still constitutes a loophole that must be closed. As for your attack on KP's 'attitude to immigrants', it has nothing to do with racism, but to an abuse of process whereby the institution of marriage is being corrupted just as citizenship used to be by the exploitation of loopholes to twist their purposes to one of simply gaining residency in this country. The Left want to close down discussion on immigration-control but unfortunately for them, the writ of the Irish Times and RAR do not run online. ;)
Incorrect: marriage to an EU citizen gives th right to move with them to another EU state. It does no confer any righ to reside within the EU per se.

In Ireland the probing and proof requirements come at the stage of requesting permanent residence, which is after 3 years of marriage, or when applying for a marriage visa, as is the case in Australia.

This entire thread is based on a false premise.
 

Kevin Parlon

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but they were here before they were married, this is what the thread is about. marriages in Ireland not people coming here as married couples..
Uh-oh. I got to stop that Hijack right there. That is NOT what this thread is about. It is about .... (again)

1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Uh-oh. I got to stop that Hijack right there. That is NOT what this thread is about. It is about .... (again)

1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
We need the refusal of visas for those suspected of conspiracy to marry for the purposes of living in the EU. We need coordination of EU intelligence-sharing for the purposes of ascertaining where this is happening. Clearly, Pakistan and India are the main offender-countries, and the allocation of work-permits to citizens of those country should consequently undergo more thorough scrutiny.
 

Chrisco

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Uh-oh. I got to stop that Hijack right there. That is NOT what this thread is about. It is about .... (again)

1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
1) Because marriage does not confer on you the right to reside in Ireland.
2) No it doesn't.
3) See above.
 


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