Rapid rise in 'sham marriages'

Kevin Parlon

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Incorrect: marriage to an EU citizen gives th right to move with them to another EU state. It does no confer any righ to reside within the EU per se.

In Ireland the probing and proof requirements come at the stage of requesting permanent residence, which is after 3 years of marriage, or when applying for a marriage visa, as is the case in Australia.

This entire thread is based on a false premise.
Is this wrong then?
Weddings in Ireland and Moving to Ireland with a Non-EU Spouse

Marriage in Ireland to a non-EU Citizen

If your non-national spouse entered Ireland on a visitor's visa or authorization, you may be worried about their status after your marriage in Ireland. Don't be - unless the new spouse is from a visa-required nation. In that case, see below.

There is no problem if you celebrate your nuptials before the visa expires. If the wedding ceremony will take place later than the non-national's visa allows, he or she will have to report to the Dublin Garda National Immigration Office or the local Garda station. This visit must take place prior to the date stamped on the passport or visa. For an extension, the non-national will have to present pre-nuptial papers.

In other words, the wedding will have to be scheduled and official documents to that effect have to be presented in order to get an extension. Once married, both non-national and the Irish spouse need to go back to the Garda Station/Immigration Office. Both partners will need to present passports and the marriage licence. If you do this in Dublin, the non-national will walk out of the office with a residency permit. If you do it outside of Dublin, it will take a few days for the permit to arrive. Once the permit has arrived, the non-national is free to work without any need for a work permit.
 


pinemartin

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Uh-oh. I got to stop that Hijack right there. That is NOT what this thread is about. It is about .... (again)

1) why isn't it being stopped and 2) doesn't this show that we do not value the right to residency in Ireland and 3) why do you think that is?
well the tread is really about all these "uninvited illegals" who you would prefer were not in this beautiful sacred land. I think that is really what it is about.
 

pinemartin

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Is this wrong then?
Weddings in Ireland and Moving to Ireland with a Non-EU Spouse

Marriage in Ireland to a non-EU Citizen

If your non-national spouse entered Ireland on a visitor's visa or authorization, you may be worried about their status after your marriage in Ireland. Don't be - unless the new spouse is from a visa-required nation. In that case, see below.

There is no problem if you celebrate your nuptials before the visa expires. If the wedding ceremony will take place later than the non-national's visa allows, he or she will have to report to the Dublin Garda National Immigration Office or the local Garda station. This visit must take place prior to the date stamped on the passport or visa. For an extension, the non-national will have to present pre-nuptial papers.

In other words, the wedding will have to be scheduled and official documents to that effect have to be presented in order to get an extension. Once married, both non-national and the Irish spouse need to go back to the Garda Station/Immigration Office. Both partners will need to present passports and the marriage licence. If you do this in Dublin, the non-national will walk out of the office with a residency permit. If you do it outside of Dublin, it will take a few days for the permit to arrive. Once the permit has arrived, the non-national is free to work without any need for a work permit.
what do you mean by the wedding will have to be scheduled and what official document must the people have?
 

Chrisco

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Is this wrong then?
Weddings in Ireland and Moving to Ireland with a Non-EU Spouse

Marriage in Ireland to a non-EU Citizen

If your non-national spouse entered Ireland on a visitor's visa or authorization, you may be worried about their status after your marriage in Ireland. Don't be - unless the new spouse is from a visa-required nation. In that case, see below.

There is no problem if you celebrate your nuptials before the visa expires. If the wedding ceremony will take place later than the non-national's visa allows, he or she will have to report to the Dublin Garda National Immigration Office or the local Garda station. This visit must take place prior to the date stamped on the passport or visa. For an extension, the non-national will have to present pre-nuptial papers.

In other words, the wedding will have to be scheduled and official documents to that effect have to be presented in order to get an extension. Once married, both non-national and the Irish spouse need to go back to the Garda Station/Immigration Office. Both partners will need to present passports and the marriage licence. If you do this in Dublin, the non-national will walk out of the office with a residency permit. If you do it outside of Dublin, it will take a few days for the permit to arrive. Once the permit has arrived, the non-national is free to work without any need for a work permit.
Yes it is wrong. The non-national gets a Stamp 3, granting temporary permission to stay but not work, while their application is being reviewed.
 

pinemartin

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Is this wrong then?
Weddings in Ireland and Moving to Ireland with a Non-EU Spouse

Marriage in Ireland to a non-EU Citizen

If your non-national spouse entered Ireland on a visitor's visa or authorization, you may be worried about their status after your marriage in Ireland. Don't be - unless the new spouse is from a visa-required nation. In that case, see below.

There is no problem if you celebrate your nuptials before the visa expires. If the wedding ceremony will take place later than the non-national's visa allows, he or she will have to report to the Dublin Garda National Immigration Office or the local Garda station. This visit must take place prior to the date stamped on the passport or visa. For an extension, the non-national will have to present pre-nuptial papers.

In other words, the wedding will have to be scheduled and official documents to that effect have to be presented in order to get an extension. Once married, both non-national and the Irish spouse need to go back to the Garda Station/Immigration Office. Both partners will need to present passports and the marriage licence. If you do this in Dublin, the non-national will walk out of the office with a residency permit. If you do it outside of Dublin, it will take a few days for the permit to arrive. Once the permit has arrived, the non-national is free to work without any need for a work permit.
you are confused they are taking about a non eu citizen marrying an irish citizen not marriying an eu one.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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This is a matter of urgency as studies in the UK found that 75% of terrorist-plots originate in Pakistan. In that context, there is a threat that Islamist terrorists will exploit this loophole in order to either use Ireland as a base to attack other EU states, or else to attack targets in this republic. We shouldn't have to wait for that to happen (assuming it hasn't already) before taking action to prevent it by closing the loophole. The burden should be on would-be migrants to prove their bona-fides before coming here. Ireland doesn't owe anyone a better life except Irish citizens. It is naive in the extreme to assume that loopholes will not be exploited - not least loopholes as publicised as these.
 

Kevin Parlon

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you are confused they are taking about a non eu citizen marrying an irish citizen not marriying an eu one.
The EU party to the marriage being Irish or not is not relevant to my OP.
 
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Kevin Parlon

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Yes it is wrong. The non-national gets a Stamp 3, granting temporary permission to stay but not work, while their application is being reviewed.
I am drawing a comparision with the state of discourse in Australia as compared to that in Ireland and the related matter of the seriousness with which officialdom carries out its duties in the granting residency (of any colour) to those who engage in patently fraudulent scam marriages.

You have ignored that, and proceeded to engage in a hair splitting excercise (permanent vs. other types of residency) in a bid to shut down the discussion, perhaps because you are uncomfortable the topic or the opinions you perceive others to have expressed on this thread.

Semantics are a poor substitute for reasoned argument. But so you do not try to paint me as avoiding it; You have already contracdicted yourself. (First: Doesn't grant residency Then: Grants a type of residency) You attacked on that technicality in a bid to shut down the discussion.

Getting a scam marriage done grants the right to stay in Ireland and move to any EU country. (If I am wrong here which of course I could be, point me to the relevant law which contradicts that last sentance). It would seem your assetion is also at odds with the IT op piece today. Few legal means to restrict rise in bogus unions - The Irish Times - Tue, Aug 17, 2010
 

biffo50

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The irony is that non-EU citizens who marry other EU citizens e.g. Latvians, have the right to live in Ireland under EU law (the Government's efforts to control this were foiled by the European Court) but those who marry Irish citizens do not have such rights, let's be clear about that.
My wife is a non-EU citizen, but had legal status here before we were married. But I am aware of cases where people did not have status and did not have the right to stay.
As regards the sham marriages between Asians and Latvians, I am told that under Latvian law, you can get divorced in three months. Registrars tell me the guards are turning up to prevent ceremonies like this, but I suppose they can't get to them all.
Apparently, most of the Asians in question do not want to stay in Ireland, but use Ireland as a backdoor to live in Britain. Certainly, I agree there is a need for a law to prevent this type of abuse, but at the same time, without penalising people who are genuine couples e.g. I know a Latvian woman who married an Algerian, they are a genuine couple, still together after a number of years.
I am told there are relatively few Irish marrying in registry offices now, since the law was changed to let people marry in e.g. hotels. I am not sure if that's the case all over the country, would be interested to know.
Incidentally, and nothing to do with this topic, but I see a Dublin priest is refusing to marry people unless they have had a civil ceremony first. Anyone know anything about the comments of Father Arthur O'Neill?
 

Kevin Parlon

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The irony is that non-EU citizens who marry other EU citizens e.g. Latvians, have the right to live in Ireland under EU law (the Government's efforts to control this were foiled by the European Court) but those who marry Irish citizens do not have such rights, let's be clear about that.
My wife is a non-EU citizen, but had legal status here before we were married. But I am aware of cases where people did not have status and did not have the right to stay.
As regards the sham marriages between Asians and Latvians, I am told that under Latvian law, you can get divorced in three months. Registrars tell me the guards are turning up to prevent ceremonies like this, but I suppose they can't get to them all.
Apparently, most of the Asians in question do not want to stay in Ireland, but use Ireland as a backdoor to live in Britain. Certainly, I agree there is a need for a law to prevent this type of abuse, but at the same time, without penalising people who are genuine couples e.g. I know a Latvian woman who married an Algerian, they are a genuine couple, still together after a number of years.
I am told there are relatively few Irish marrying in registry offices now, since the law was changed to let people marry in e.g. hotels. I am not sure if that's the case all over the country, would be interested to know.
Incidentally, and nothing to do with this topic, but I see a Dublin priest is refusing to marry people unless they have had a civil ceremony first. Anyone know anything about the comments of Father Arthur O'Neill?
I am also married to a non-EU citizen and am acutely aware of the price that this abuse extracts from genuine couples. It would appear the whole process currently grossly inconvenieces genuine couples whilst at the same time doing very little to nothing to prevent the abuse of the system by queue jumpers and unregularised migrants. A typical dog's dinner and commensurate with the value placed on Irish residency by the government.
 

JN_V2.0

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so the muffin top wearing obese welfare lifer wants to marry the Nigerian that is the love of her life?

Let her

Then deport the pair of them.
 

Libero

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Kevin Parlon said:
I am drawing a comparision with the state of discourse in Australia as compared to that in Ireland and the related matter of the seriousness with which officialdom carries out its duties in the granting residency (of any colour) to those who engage in patently fraudulent scam marriages.

You have ignored that, and proceeded to engage in a hair splitting excercise (permanent vs. other types of residency) in a bid to shut down the discussion, perhaps because you are uncomfortable the topic or the opinions you perceive others to have expressed on this thread.

Semantics are a poor substitute for reasoned argument...
I think you're being unfair.

It's not semantic obscurantism to point out that Ireland is a member state of the European Union and the associated rules make for a different context than Australia.

As for comparing and contrasting the nature of the discourse in Australia regarding marriages of foreign couples... It's interesting to read about your thoughts on that subject, but since so few of us on these boards live in that country, you can hardly expect us to have much knowledge of the nature of the discourse there.

Getting back to Ireland, state regulation is often characterised by underpowered, minimalist, constitutionally-restrained legislation, along with disinterested and under-resourced staff, and a tendency by the media to concentrate on regulatory failure only a disaster story results. With that in mind, I wouldn't be too quick to look at poor regulation of foreign marriages in Ireland and deduce some particular bad motives in the area.
 

Chrisco

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This is a matter of urgency as studies in the UK found that 75% of terrorist-plots originate in Pakistan. In that context, there is a threat that Islamist terrorists will exploit this loophole in order to either use Ireland as a base to attack other EU states, or else to attack targets in this republic. We shouldn't have to wait for that to happen (assuming it hasn't already) before taking action to prevent it by closing the loophole. The burden should be on would-be migrants to prove their bona-fides before coming here. Ireland doesn't owe anyone a better life except Irish citizens. It is naive in the extreme to assume that loopholes will not be exploited - not least loopholes as publicised as these.
They do have to prove their bona fides TP, otherwise they don't get a visa...
 

FutureTaoiseach

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They do have to prove their bona fides TP, otherwise they don't get a visa...
It has now emeged - contrary to what some on this thread claimed - that the majority of those involved are failed asylum-seekers, and student's whose right to residence in the State has expired. So it is more of an issue for illegal migrants living in the State. So that's that argument out the window. We are dealing now with the legacy of a student-visa and asylum policy that meant 97% of student-visa applications were being granted (read this in the Independent yrs ago) up to a few yrs ago and a pathetic 25% deportation-rate for failed asylum-seekers. Those of you considering voting Labour should take into account that party's pro-amnesty positions which will only exacerbate the situation.
 

Chrisco

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I am drawing a comparision with the state of discourse in Australia as compared to that in Ireland and the related matter of the seriousness with which officialdom carries out its duties in the granting residency (of any colour) to those who engage in patently fraudulent scam marriages.

You have ignored that, and proceeded to engage in a hair splitting excercise (permanent vs. other types of residency) in a bid to shut down the discussion, perhaps because you are uncomfortable the topic or the opinions you perceive others to have expressed on this thread.

Semantics are a poor substitute for reasoned argument. But so you do not try to paint me as avoiding it; You have already contracdicted yourself. (First: Doesn't grant residency Then: Grants a type of residency) You attacked on that technicality in a bid to shut down the discussion.

Getting a scam marriage done grants the right to stay in Ireland and move to any EU country. (If I am wrong here which of course I could be, point me to the relevant law which contradicts that last sentance). It would seem your assetion is also at odds with the IT op piece today. Few legal means to restrict rise in bogus unions - The Irish Times - Tue, Aug 17, 2010
It is not obscurantism to point out that your argument is base on a false premise: that a marriage grants you the right to stay in Ireland. It does not. It grants you the right to apply to stay under a particular category, as in Australia, subject to providing to the satisfaction of the authorities that the marriage is genuine.

What's the difference with Australia?
 

FutureTaoiseach

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It is not obscurantism to point out that your argument is base on a false premise: that a marriage grants you the right to stay in Ireland. It does not. It grants you the right to apply to stay under a particular category, as in Australia, subject to providing to the satisfaction of the authorities that the marriage is genuine.

What's the difference with Australia?
Well if in practice it amounts to not being removed from Ireland then for all intents and purposes, it is de facto-residency. Any removal would be certain to result in years of litigation, during which 'humanitarian factors' i.e. getting pregnant, would lead to sympathy from political and media-players, resulting in the granting of residency.
 

pinemartin

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This is a matter of urgency as studies in the UK found that 75% of terrorist-plots originate in Pakistan. In that context, there is a threat that Islamist terrorists will exploit this loophole in order to either use Ireland as a base to attack other EU states, or else to attack targets in this republic. We shouldn't have to wait for that to happen (assuming it hasn't already) before taking action to prevent it by closing the loophole. The burden should be on would-be migrants to prove their bona-fides before coming here. Ireland doesn't owe anyone a better life except Irish citizens. It is naive in the extreme to assume that loopholes will not be exploited - not least loopholes as publicised as these.

that report dosnt say that 75% of terrorist plots originated in Pakistan.you should try getting your facts right.
 


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