RCC School Divestment - what the Constitution says

Dame_Enda

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Divestment of the RCC schools is coming up again in the media today in the wake of the repeal of the 8th amendment and discussion on the growing secularism of the Irish electorate.

Until recently successive governments have argued that the Constitution limits what they can do to force school divestment? Is this in fact true, and if so, should we hold a referendum(s) to force removal of RCC patronage? And if we do, what articles will need amending? The following are the relevant articles of the Constitution pertinant in this matter:

Article 41:
Article 41:

"1.1°: The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

1.2°: The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State."

---

Article 44:

2.2°: The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

2.3°: The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

2.4°: Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


2.5°: Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

2.6°: The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.


According to Citizensinformation.ie, taken together Articles 41/44 mean:

Citizens Information said:
....What these articles mean
These articles have been the subject of a number of court decisions. In simple terms, the essential points about these articles are:

The family is the main source of education for the child. Parents are entitled to provide education outside the school system if they wish.
The state may not force parents to send their children to any school or any particular kind of school. Parents may decide the school to which they wish to send their children but there is no constitutional obligation on a particular school to accept individual children.
The state may require that the children receive a certain minimum education. This certain minimum has not yet been defined in legislation or in official policy. Many of the court cases have been about the precise meaning of that phrase.
The state is obliged to provide for free primary education. It is not obliged to provide that education directly. In practice, there are some state schools but the majority of primary schools are privately owned and largely state funded. See ownership of primary schools
The state is not obliged to directly provide schools but it is not prevented from doing so either.....
 


Analyzer

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We need the Educational equivalent of the HSE to take over.

Statism is the future, now. And the statism that will exist in Ireland's education system will be post-Modernist, and anti-classical.
 

Glenshane4

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Divestment of the RCC schools is coming up again in the media today in the wake of the repeal of the 8th amendment and discussion on the growing secularism of the Irish electorate.
What has the "growing secularism (or reducing Catholicism) of the Eire electorate to do with Catholic schools? Even if only 1% of the people of Eire were Catholics, the Catholic Church has a right to control the schools which it owns - all the schools which it owns.

If the Eire State tries to steal schools from Catholics, its biggest hurdle will not be the Constitution of Eire; it will be certain provisions in the Government of Ireland Act - the legal foundation for all the law-making powers of the institutions of the Eire state.
 

gerhard dengler

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Parents vote by sending their children to Catholic-ethos schools more and more.
Just look at the UK.
 

Alphonse

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There is just one chatolic church it is called the Chatolic Church there is no reason to add the word Roman to it in fact the Romans themselves and as a civilization simply don't exist anymore that has been the case for some time.
 

Dame_Enda

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What has the "growing secularism (or reducing Catholicism) of the Eire electorate to do with Catholic schools? Even if only 1% of the people of Eire were Catholics, the Catholic Church has a right to control the schools which it owns - all the schools which it owns.

If the Eire State tries to steal schools from Catholics, its biggest hurdle will not be the Constitution of Eire; it will be certain provisions in the Government of Ireland Act - the legal foundation for all the law-making powers of the institutions of the Eire state.
It doesnt have a right to control 93% of the primary schools.
 

statsman

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What has the "growing secularism (or reducing Catholicism) of the Eire electorate to do with Catholic schools? Even if only 1% of the people of Eire were Catholics, the Catholic Church has a right to control the schools which it owns - all the schools which it owns.

If the Eire State tries to steal schools from Catholics, its biggest hurdle will not be the Constitution of Eire; it will be certain provisions in the Government of Ireland Act - the legal foundation for all the law-making powers of the institutions of the Eire state.
The next let the church fully fund them.
 

Mercurial

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Divestment of the RCC schools is coming up again in the media today in the wake of the repeal of the 8th amendment and discussion on the growing secularism of the Irish electorate.

Until recently successive governments have argued that the Constitution limits what they can do to force school divestment? Is this in fact true, and if so, should we hold a referendum(s) to force removal of RCC patronage? And if we do, what articles will need amending? The following are the relevant articles of the Constitution pertinant in this matter:

Article 41:
Article 41:

"1.1°: The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

1.2°: The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State."

---

Article 44:

2.2°: The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

2.3°: The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

2.4°: Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


2.5°: Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

2.6°: The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.


According to Citizensinformation.ie, taken together Articles 41/44 mean:
It seems to me that you've omitted another very relevant section of the Constitution, namely Article 42A:

Article 42A 1 The State recognises and affirms the natural and imprescriptible rights of all children and shall, as far as practicable, by its laws protect and vindicate those rights.
2 1° In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such an extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as provided by law, endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.
2° Provision shall be made by law for the adoption of any child where the parents have failed for such a period of time as may be prescribed by law in their duty towards the child and where the best interests of the child so require.
3 Provision shall be made by law for the voluntary placement for adoption and the adoption of any child.
4 1° Provision shall be made by law that in the resolution of all proceedings—
i brought by the State, as guardian of the common good, for the purpose of preventing the safety and welfare of any child from being prejudicially affected, or
ii concerning the adoption, guardianship or custody of, or access to, any child,
the best interests of the child shall be the paramount consideration.
2° Provision shall be made by law for securing, as far as practicable, that in all proceedings referred to in subsection 1° of this section in respect of any child who is capable of forming his or her own views, the views of the child shall be ascertained and given due weight having regard to the age and maturity of the child.
 

making waves

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What has the "growing secularism (or reducing Catholicism) of the Eire electorate to do with Catholic schools? Even if only 1% of the people of Eire were Catholics, the Catholic Church has a right to control the schools which it owns - all the schools which it owns.

If the Eire State tries to steal schools from Catholics, its biggest hurdle will not be the Constitution of Eire; it will be certain provisions in the Government of Ireland Act - the legal foundation for all the law-making powers of the institutions of the Eire state.
Let's not talk about the fact that the government provides all the funding for school buildings, staff and materials. Or the fact that the RCC still owes €1.3billion for investigation and redress into residential institutional child abuse.

And - the Government of Ireland Act was repealed - along with (among others) Poyning's Act 1495, The Irish Free State (Agreement) Act 1922 and The Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 - by the The Statute Law Revision Act 2007.
 

making waves

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There is just one chatolic church it is called the Chatolic Church there is no reason to add the word Roman to it in fact the Romans themselves and as a civilization simply don't exist anymore that has been the case for some time.
someone is a bit touchy
 

GDPR

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In Ireland they have no bloody choice
Just like in the North. Send your kid to a Catholic school simply because you were terrified they would be bullied by Protestants at the supposed non-denominational State school.

That is how the denominations carved up religion between them to the point where there was and still is a Catholic and Protestant Teacher Training College.

Although both sectors were being paid for by the State. Divil a penny they put into it themselves.

Fukk em all out.
 

making waves

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Just like in the North. Send your kid to a Catholic school simply because you were terrified they would be bullied by Protestants at the supposed non-denominational State school.

That is how the denominations carved up religion between them to the point where there was and still is a Catholic and Protestant Teacher Training College.

Although both sectors were being paid for by the State. Divil a penny they put into it themselves.

Fukk em all out.
And both the Catholic and Protestant churches fought integrated education until they finally got their way
 

Dame_Enda

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It seems to me that you've omitted another very relevant section of the Constitution, namely Article 42A:
I think it would be a stretch though to assume those provisions allow for mass divestment.
 


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