Re-thinking Asylum


JacquesHughes

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It's not over...

The days are getting longer, the weather is warmer ...and the numbers of sea-borne migrants making their hazardous way to Italy is set to break records. 3000 were rescued form the mediteranean last Saturday; 43,490 had arrived in Europe by 26 April 2017

Three thousand migrants rescued in the Mediterranean

Italy has been trying to step up it's rate of repatriation of economic migrants (reports Tony Kington), 6242 have been put on flights mainly to North African countries by mid April this year. An extraordinary policing, legal, caring effort.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/italy-steps-up-repatriation-of-economic-migrants-arriving-on-boats-8mx88qgqt

The breakdown of the migrants by nationality is a source of information about their motivations. The 2017 figures are available:
Nigeria..............14%
Bangladesh........12%
Guinea..............11%
Ivory Coast........11%
Gambia..............8%
Senegal.............7%
Morocco.............6%
Mali...................5%
Eritrea...............3%
Pakistan.............3%
Other.................20%

Surprise! Bangladeshis are the second most common nationality on those inflatable boats.
These are not even countries we conventionally recognise as 'war torn' or as ruthlessly oppressive 'police states'. Their domestic conditions or the excesses of occupation forces on their territory arouse little popular protest on our streets, or high-minded resolutions at the UN.
The survivors' accounts of their suffering are dominated by the horrors they experienced AFTER they left their native country.

These are, almost universally, populous, poor countries, with socially conservative societies, and sometimes great inequalities of wealth. Clearly the 'self-determination' of these countries has been to the migrants an irrelevancy, or a source of despair, rather than hope.

Italy will find that bailing out the bath, faster than the open tap is filling it up, is exhausting, expensive, and inadequate. We're not going to turn around economic conditions in these countries anytime soon- ( and sometimes I fear we do not even realise, it's our role).

Conclusion: if a change is to be made to the increasing numbers of people sailing to Europe on unseaworthy inflatables, the incentives drawing them towards a 'new life', for them and their families, in Europe must be reduced.
 

Catalpast

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The days are getting longer, the weather is warmer ...and the numbers of sea-borne migrants making their hazardous way to Italy is set to break records. 3000 were rescued form the mediteranean last Saturday; 43,490 had arrived in Europe by 26 April 2017

Three thousand migrants rescued in the Mediterranean

Italy has been trying to step up it's rate of repatriation of economic migrants (reports Tony Kington), 6242 have been put on flights mainly to North African countries by mid April this year. An extraordinary policing, legal, caring effort.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/italy-steps-up-repatriation-of-economic-migrants-arriving-on-boats-8mx88qgqt

The breakdown of the migrants by nationality is a source of information about their motivations. The 2017 figures are available:
Nigeria..............14%
Bangladesh........12%
Guinea..............11%
Ivory Coast........11%
Gambia..............8%
Senegal.............7%
Morocco.............6%
Mali...................5%
Eritrea...............3%
Pakistan.............3%
Other.................20%

Surprise! Bangladeshis are the second most common nationality on those inflatable boats.
These are not even countries we conventionally recognise as 'war torn' or as ruthlessly oppressive 'police states'. Their domestic conditions or the excesses of occupation forces on their territory arouse little popular protest on our streets, or high-minded resolutions at the UN.
The survivors' accounts of their suffering are dominated by the horrors they experienced AFTER they left their native country.

These are, almost universally, populous, poor countries, with socially conservative societies, and sometimes great inequalities of wealth. Clearly the 'self-determination' of these countries has been to the migrants an irrelevancy, or a source of despair, rather than hope.

Italy will find that bailing out the bath, faster than the open tap is filling it up, is exhausting, expensive, and inadequate. We're not going to turn around economic conditions in these countries anytime soon- ( and sometimes I fear we do not even realise, it's our role).

Conclusion: if a change is to be made to the increasing numbers of people sailing to Europe on unseaworthy inflatables, the incentives drawing them towards a 'new life', for them and their families, in Europe must be reduced.
If the European Navies were being used to protect Europe

- then they would be blockade the ports these craft set sail from

- instead of encouraging them to do so....
 

TARZAN

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Why is Enda Kenny so afraid of Merkel? He should tell her that the Irish Navy will not be complicit in transporting migrants included former ISIS soldiers to Europe where they are a huge burden on the EU as well as a threat to democracy. Why has no politician called for our Navy to be brought back to protect our waters from illegal fishing vessels which have increased since they realised we have part of our fisheries protection Naval fleet on ferry duty in the Mediterranean ??
 

Catalpast

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Why is Enda Kenny so afraid of Merkel? He should tell her that the Irish Navy will not be complicit in transporting migrants included former ISIS soldiers to Europe where they are a huge burden on the EU as well as a threat to democracy. Why has no politician called for our Navy to be brought back to protect our waters from illegal fishing vessels which have increased since they realised we have part of our fisheries protection Naval fleet on ferry duty in the Mediterranean ??
The Political Establishment is rotten to the core

In a business worth literally Billions per annum

- then people can be bought....
 

razorblade

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The navy are breaking the law in helping to traffic migrants into Europe, they should do the decent thing and turn their boats around and drop them back to where they came from, then sink their boats to discourage them from attempting the dangerous crossings to try to get to Europe, which they have no right to go to.
 
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foxfordbhoy

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Check out the Coudenhove Kalegri Plan. Merkel, Tony Blair, Von Rumpoy and Peter Sutherland are all holders of the award, amongst many others.
 

Equinox

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Check out the Coudenhove Kalegri Plan. Merkel, Tony Blair, Von Rumpoy and Peter Sutherland are all holders of the award, amongst many others.
I don't need to. Walk around Dublin city center, particularly north of the Liffey, and it becomes clear that you are now a minority on your streets.
 

JacquesHughes

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Sub-editor: Lynn 'learnt no good deed goes unpunished'

A very personal, even experiential, account of a part of the refugee crisis was published in the Sunday Times Magazine (28-5-17) by Lynn Barber. It's a very funny, apparently truthful, contribution to the mainly propagandistic literature on this topic.
Lynn, aged 71, living alone, takes a young male asylum seeker from Sudan into her home. (She's been told she was not welcome to take in a family because she smokes- and they've faced enough risk; fair enough.) Lynn, ironically is just leaving for North Africa when he arrives- for a holiday. Funny old world.

Rarely can two people have shared a house with so little previous knowledge or accurate expectations of each other.

Mohammed seems unaware of the famous short-temper or persisting journalistic instincts of the 'Demon Barber of Fleet Street'.
Lynn successively learns of the quite extraordinary risks undertaken by Mohammed on his overland journey to the UK, that his family are wealthy back home, that he has a wife who is still studying at university in Sudan, and who anticipates working in the UK, he has independent sources of income, regularly Skypes his mother at home, and takes an active interest in internet pornography and smoking cannabis. Lynn never does find out much about Mohammed's political activities or the persecution which is the basis of his successful asylum claim, and notes he seems to have given little thought to what job he might eventually work at in the U.K.

After six months they fall out, and apart; partly over Lynn's wish to publish the story. She's accused of being a heartless Christian, also racist(sic). Lynn candidly recounts her annoyance at the visitor's offence at the term 'refugee', his not using or keeping most of the clothes donated by her friends ('that made me more furious than anything else'), and his frequent attendance at the A&E department ( so different to the robust Lynn).

Lynn adds that she hesitated a long time before publishing - worried 'it will give succour to all the told-you-so racists' (maybe George Orwell had similar qualms before publishing Homage to Catalonia). Fortunately journalism won out. Lynn admits she actually suffered no more than bruised ego, and ends brightly, now ' I think I'm ready to take on another asylum seeker'.

It's a good story.
 
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storybud1

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I don't need to. Walk around Dublin city center, particularly north of the Liffey, and it becomes clear that you are now a minority on your streets.
My very first post 10 years ago was about North Frederick Street,

we have nimbys for politicians, nimbys for media,

It 100% does not happen where they live and they are 100% happy to force this madness upon the Ballaghadreens and Blanchardstowns of this Country, just not where they live in South Dublin.

The source of power in this Country for the last twenty years resided in D4, D4, Griffith Avenue on the Northside which has had zero 3rd world immigration and the media class of morons that are a liberal mouthpiece political movement that funnily enough live and work in the same sphere as the nimby politicians.

It cannot be said enough times, the ONLY answer to 3rd world welfare immigration is ensuring 100% of them are housed beside 100% of the proponents that advocate this mad policy. They want it , so lets give it to them,
 

mr_anderson

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My very first post 10 years ago was about North Frederick Street,

we have nimbys for politicians, nimbys for media,

It 100% does not happen where they live and they are 100% happy to force this madness upon the Ballaghadreens and Blanchardstowns of this Country, just not where they live in South Dublin.

The source of power in this Country for the last twenty years resided in D4, D4, Griffith Avenue on the Northside which has had zero 3rd world immigration and the media class of morons that are a liberal mouthpiece political movement that funnily enough live and work in the same sphere as the nimby politicians.

It cannot be said enough times, the ONLY answer to 3rd world welfare immigration is ensuring 100% of them are housed beside 100% of the proponents that advocate this mad policy. They want it , so lets give it to them,

I've gone one step further and advocated building a hostel to house them in the city or town centre of the constituency of the local TD who advocated open borders.
With that hostel to be named in their honour.

I propose the Lynn Boylan Centre for Islamic Rapists to be located on Parnell Square just beside SF's offices.
She can boast that it provides a ''Specialized 800-unit accommodation for newly-arrived bearded children''.

Ruth Coppinger can cut the ribbon on her very own Coppinger Sanctuary for the Advocates of FGM.
This much maligned group of bearded children just want to cut the clit of those without beards, because of the crime of not having a beard.
Ruth believes in embracing all cultural differences and enriching oneself on the knife of friendship.

Gerry Adams has three premises to his name, in Louth, West Belfast & West Donegal.
Louth Town & West Belfast each get an Adams Foundation for Actuarial Excellence, a boarding school for fresh-faced bearded children to learn the importance of numbers.
Most notably the phrase ''You have two minutes to evacuate the area'', the usage of which has been sadly dying out of late.

Nothing built in West Donegal thankfully.
Instead, Gerry has offered his holiday home to some traumatised bearded children whose refugee boat was found with 87 dead Christians on board. Apparently, in a fit of collective suicide, they had each stabbed themselves over 100 times.
Some had even ripped their own genitals off and put them in their mouths.
Gerry's Pigs will Fly safe area will focus on cultural sensitivity and integration classes, with particular attention on how to integrate nails into a block of semtex.
 
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eyelight

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Why is Enda Kenny so afraid of Merkel? He should tell her that the Irish Navy will not be complicit in transporting migrants included former ISIS soldiers to Europe where they are a huge burden on the EU as well as a threat to democracy. Why has no politician called for our Navy to be brought back to protect our waters from illegal fishing vessels which have increased since they realised we have part of our fisheries protection Naval fleet on ferry duty in the Mediterranean ??
The Irish naval vessel Eithne has crossed into Libyan territorial waters to collect it's ferry service passengers now.

Is this a first?
Are Irish people aware that their naval service is engaged in such duplicitous acts of treason agains the native population of Europe?

 

JacquesHughes

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Post-script to Lynn Barber article

A very personal, even experiential, account of a part of the refugee crisis was published in the Sunday Times Magazine (28-5-17) by Lynn Barber. It's a very funny, apparently truthful, contribution to the mainly propagandistic literature on this topic.
Lynn, aged 71, living alone, takes a young male asylum seeker from Sudan into her home. (She's been told she was not welcome to take in a family because she smokes- and they've faced enough risk; fair enough.) Lynn, ironically is just leaving for North Africa when he arrives- for a holiday. Funny old world.

Rarely can two people have shared a house with so little previous knowledge or accurate expectations of each other.

Mohammed seems unaware of the famous short-temper or persisting journalistic instincts of the 'Demon Barber of Fleet Street'.
Lynn successively learns of the quite extraordinary risks undertaken by Mohammed on his overland journey to the UK, that his family are wealthy back home, that he has a wife who is still studying at university in Sudan, and who anticipates working in the UK, he has independent sources of income, regularly Skypes his mother at home, and takes an active interest in internet pornography and smoking cannabis. Lynn never does find out much about Mohammed's political activities or the persecution which is the basis of his successful asylum claim, and notes he seems to have given little thought to what job he might eventually work at in the U.K.

After six months they fall out, and apart; partly over Lynn's wish to publish the story. She's accused of being a heartless Christian, also racist(sic). Lynn candidly recounts her annoyance at the visitor's offence at the term 'refugee', his not using or keeping most of the clothes donated by her friends ('that made me more furious than anything else'), and his frequent attendance at the A&E department ( so different to the robust Lynn).

Lynn adds that she hesitated a long time before publishing - worried 'it will give succour to all the told-you-so racists' (maybe George Orwell had similar qualms before publishing Homage to Catalonia). Fortunately journalism won out. Lynn admits she actually suffered no more than bruised ego, and ends brightly, now ' I think I'm ready to take on another asylum seeker'.

It's a good story.


Post-script:
Lynn Barber may be ready to take in her next asylum seeker, but the Sunday Times will probably not be willing to publish.

Mohammed Ahmed complained to the Independent Press Standards Organisation about 'discrimination, harassment and invasion of privacy'. The IPSO upheld 'invasion of privacy' and obliged the Sunday Times to publish a 'clarification' and the IPSO judgement.
https://www.imediaethics.org/sunday-times-article-critical-sudanese-asylum-seeker-invaded-privacy/

No further information has come to public light of just what persecution in Sudan has justified Mr Ahmed's successful asylum claim to the UK

Comment: With such a chill-factor from the IPSO, Lynn Barber's personal, candid, and non-propagandist, account of getting to know her asylum seeker is likely to remain a publishing rarity.

Had Mohammed Ahmed presented his claim to the Republic of Ireland, his 15 sibs, mother, two step-mothers ( Dad has three wives) and father would have possible claims on 'family re-unification in the State'- an irresponsible entitlement by which our bone-lazy Government avoids examining the facts of individuals' claims of persecution, and self-righteously dumps a huge burden on the Irish people.
 

Dame_Enda

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I think the original understanding of asylum e.g. the Huguenots in England, was that you get to stay until the danger has passed (in France it didnt until the French Revolution). After the Revolution the French nobles returned to France en masse, especially after the restoration of the monarchy in 1814 and 1815. We need to return to the concept of refugees going home when the danger has passed.
 

JacquesHughes

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'Europe's black population has grown dramatically in the past decade'

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/europe’s-black-population-has-increased-by-at-least-a-million-over-the-last-decade/ar-BBKC6yJ?ocid=spartandhp

Most of the increase is through the route of asylum claims- many from sub-saharan Africa.
The EU's preferred solution is to move the decision-making ( laws, regulations, allocation of housing resources, entitlements) far away from local communities to pro-immigration euro-elites; yes, the very people who have encouraged asylum-seeking journeys to Europe in the first place!

One might note ( in contrast to Sergei Skripal, an example who does need the protection of asylum) how very few of these sub-saharan asylum-seekers are pursued by vengeful or competent governments from their old country; and how cheerfully and fearlessly they go back home for visits once their european residence is settled.
 

Dr Pat

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According to a study by the Pew Research Center there are plenty more eyeing travelling

"Between February and April 2017, Pew Research Center surveyed in six of the 10 countries that have supplied many of the sub-Saharan immigrants now living in the U.S. Four of these countries – Nigeria, Senegal, Ghana and Kenya – are also among the top 10 origin countries for sub-Saharan migrants to Europe.

The survey asked respondents whether they would go to live in another country, if they had the means and opportunity. At least four-in-ten in each sub-Saharan country surveyed answered yes, including roughly three-quarters of those surveyed in Ghana (75%) and Nigeria (74%).

The relatively high shares of people in these countries who say they would resettle in another country is generally consistent with findings from other surveys, like Afrobarometer in Nigeria and Ghana, that pose questions about the desirability of migrating. Compared with other world regions, Gallup polls find that sub-Saharan countries have some of the highest shares of people who say they would move to another country"

At Least a Million Sub-Saharan Africans Moved to Europe Since 2010 | Pew Research Center
 

JacquesHughes

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'Domestic abuse is not grounds for asylum' anymore in the US.

In some kind of a ruling Attorney General Jefferson Sessions has announced that 'domestic abuse' and fear of 'gangs' will not be grounds for successful asylum in the USA.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/us/politics/sessions-domestic-violence-asylum.html

Personally I think this is entirely right. Inadequacy or incompetence of local law enforcement, or your personal vulnerability, should not be grounds for imposing yourself as a new citizen in a preferred [ invariably more affluent, inevitably better-governed] western country. That rejection, of citizenship, should not preclude the United States, or other states, acting with charity and sympathy to these 'victims'; or , particularly in the case of the United States, bringing an enormous expertise and capability in government coercion and law enforcement, to help these individuals' problems.

Arguably, the United States has a share of the guilt, having vigourously ( both covertly and ouvertly) undermined governments in central America for decades ( out of fear that they would turn communist), has pursued Trumpian trade relationships ( 'US First' is not new) curbing their development, and has made some other unhelpful actions- eg the wholesale expulsion a few years ago of the MS-13 gang from California to 'pastures new' in El Salvador [ I think it was].

Maybe it's a bit obvious, but Europe too, has a responsibility to identify where it's bogus asylum seekers are coming from, and do what it can ( and it could be a lot) to improve those peoples' satisfaction with their lives and governments. At present this BBC article describes the character of the 'aid' being brought to Africa's problems. 'Africa is terror's new front line'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/war_in_the_desert
 

Dame_Enda

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Turkey has just built a 765 mile wall on its border with Syria. Hopefully it will help but it will also divert more illegals to the North African route. Important for the EU to crack down on the finances of the smugglers and traffickers.
 

Catalpast

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Turkey has just built a 765 mile wall on its border with Syria. Hopefully it will help but it will also divert more illegals to the North African route. Important for the EU to crack down on the finances of the smugglers and traffickers.



Where are the protests? :cool:

But when Israel and USA do this

- its a violation of Human Rights!:shock:
 

Trainwreck

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The entire refugee legal apparatus was conceived among the rubble and social dislocation, displacement and destruction of post WW2 Europe.

It is no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century, where you make arrangements with a human trafficker on your mobile phone, tear up you identity documents, present yourself to an NGO and get ferried to a western country and say "asylum".


Similarly with hordes just flooding the US Southern border.


Asylum seekers and refugees should encompass people caught up in events such as the Rwandan genocide, Zimbabwe's racial war, Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge, Syrians or Libyans etc. irrevocably displaced or endangered in recent conflicts.

It should not encompass, 99% of Central and South Americans secreting themselves or even presenting themselves at the US border, the overwhelming majority of those who are and have landed in Europe from wide range countries. And no matter how much campaigners try the emotional blackmailing, it should never include people even possibly associated with incompatible groups like ISIS (no I don't care if Aleppo was razed to the ground, no Islamic extremists).

And even then, international policy and taxpayer funded organisations need to pivot towards making refugees' home countries safe, not depopulating them.
 
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Dame_Enda

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Where are the protests? :cool:

But when Israel and USA do this

- its a violation of Human Rights!:shock:
Its different when Israel does it because Israel is doing it to expand its territory. Its not the same. Turkey and Hungary are doing it to keep out illegals.
 
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