• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Recent events in the six counties and their ongoing significance for the country


Estragon

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
1,493
I'm signing off p.ie after this. Before that I wanted to put down a few points for consideration.

Earlier this year we had the Solemn Ulster Covenant celebrations. The response to this and analysis offered in the media was largely uncritical.

What the Covenant was all about was a subversion of democracy.

A few short months later and we have Belfast City Council taking a democratic vote. The Unionist response was predictable. It is the way Unionists always respond in situations like this. They resort to violence. It is the survival reflex which has served them so eminently down the centuries.
Again, we are seeing little critical analysis of this subversion of democracy in the media. In point of fact we are being treated to hand-wringing pieces where journos head into east Belfast and Sandy Row trying to 'understand' the misunderstood Unionist.

What we hear is a lot of crap about Unionists feeling their identity is under seige. Is this what your identity is? Shoving the union jack down the throat of a city that doesn't want it? Actually, that is precisely what it is. They certainly don't want a tricolour on top of city hall alongside the union jack. They don't want equality, they want dominance. That was the very foundation of the six county entity.

When we think of some of the sickening crap Unionists have pulled in city hall down the years, their reaction to this has been simultaneously predictable and hilarious. It has made the sight of that bare flag pole all the sweeter.

Folks in the 26 counties may labour under the illusion that this is of no relevance to them.

The remorseless shift in demography begs to differ.

I have said previously that the greatest assurance of a united Ireland is that Unionists just keep on being Unionists.

What the past few days have seen is an object demonstration that Unionists just can't help being Unionists. That instinctive hatred of Fenians is just too sodden in their marrow for them to allow reason and cool political calculation to trump their need for violence and bloodlust when confronted with Catholics getting 'beyond their station'.

Many commentators on the census have comforted themselves with the delusion that half these Catholics are really green Brits. Perhaps that's the case, but I can tell you this, I've yet to come across a Catholic who isn't quite pleased to see that flag down. And it’s just a sign of things to come.

As the Nationalist proportion of the population passes out the Unionist, then they will feel less and less obligated to put up with the innumerable signs of Unionists domination we have shoved down our throat day and daily. Why should they? They're running the show. If they want to name streets after Daniel O'Connell, who's going to stop them? If they want to fund huge St Patrick's day festivities who's going to stop them? If they want to give more grants to the GAA than they do to soccer, who's going to stop them? If a majority Catholic police force starts making life difficult in East Belfast, who exactly is going to cry tears over it?

These are just a few examples off the top of my head of what an ever more nationalist six counties hold in store for unionism. A lot of it will only be a leveling of the playing field. But as unionism has amply demonstrated they are totally incapable of dealing with that without resorting to violence.

The flag on City Hall is just the thinnest end of the wedge. There is much, much more where that came from.

And how does this have relevance for the average denizen of the 26 counties?

Having seen the reaction to a fairly trivial recognition of demographic realities in Belfast, it does not take much imagination to project that coming years hold in store a steady rise of tensions in the six counties.

Now here is the key point.

Unionists will be Unionists. They will be seeking to bring violence into the equation at every perceived provocation. Little comprehending that in doing so they are turning soft Catholic opinion against the union. By constantly resorting to violence Unionists will make it abundantly clear to those Catholics not already switched on to the fact, that Unionist don't consider a six counties where they are EQUAL to Nationalists worth living in. That was never the point of the six counties.

As violence escalates frightened and newly politicised Nationalists will be faced with a two choices, both of which will be grim for Unionism.

1. They use the organs of the state, which they will then dominate, to treat unionists just as they treated nationalists throughout the Troubles.

2. They vote the six counties into a united Ireland to definitively secure their safety.

Ironically, the way things are going and current patterns of behaviour, the best unionism can now hope for is a United Ireland.

The 26 counties need to pay very careful attention to what is happening in the six counites, for this is an issue that will only play ever increasing importance in the political dialogue of the island. The government needs to be planning now for both eventualities. Part of that should see a realistic discussion started in society about how we deal with a majority nationalist six counties and unionism in a tailspin towards civil war.

The section 31 policy on this site is stupid, bone-headed, duplicitous, amoral and anti-intellectual. But it is perhaps in facilitating and fomenting ignorance on what will become a defining political development of our generation that its greatest folly lies.

When the policy is dropped I'll return. Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the slow turn of the screw.
 

McTell

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
6,073
Twitter
No
You have a small number on each "side" in NI who are hardly educated and a good number of tv crews looking for a story, that's all. In the good ole US of A they would all be labelled (or labeled) as white trash.
 

potholedogger

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
1,238
It is time to build a Colosseum in Belfast and confine all tribal combat to fixed times with some kind of rule structure.

Sky would pay a fortune for the TV rights which might draw as many viewers as the Premiership!
 

Cruimh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
85,704
The remorseless shift in demography begs to differ.
What a mopetastic whining flounce!

The shift in demography? petunia

Sure enough, the new census shows that, since 2001, the number who are or who were brought up as Protestant has dropped by 5 per cent to a total of 48 per cent – making them a minority for the first time. Meanwhile, the equivalent figure for Catholics is up 1 per cent, to 45 per cent.
The key point, however, is that being a Catholic no longer dictates your political allegiance. Asked to select one or more identities, 48 per cent of Northern Ireland’s inhabitants chose British, 29 per cent Northern Irish and only 28 per cent Irish. Anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to opt for an Irish passport, yet only a fifth do: by contrast, three fifths hold a UK passport. Last year, a survey showed that, while only 4 per cent of Protestants want a united Ireland, more than half of Catholics prefer to stay in the UK.
Some shift :)

And I suspect it is why you are retiring to sulk.
 

Victor Meldrew

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
7,184
You have a small number on each "side" in NI who are hardly educated and a good number of tv crews looking for a story, that's all. In the good ole US of A they would all be labelled (or labeled) as white trash.
Actually, that is an insult to Cletus and his wife/sister and their 10 little 'uns. In fact, it is probably an insult to his cousin Billy-Bob what done cuts dem holes in that dar bed sheet.
 

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,597
I think people in the Republic have enough to be worried about than the incessant whinnings of Nordies. If ye want to stay in the Union or join the Republic, sort it out on the quiet yourselves and when ye have an answer, let us down here know and we'll vote on it then if we can afford ye.
Bye.
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,811
Amazing how a thousand soreheads become " the unionists ".
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,651
99.9% of unionists haven't protested about the fleg and are obviously not too bothered, the fact that, that fact escapes most CNINR posters on here says more about them than anything i can.The census show us that 75% of those resident in N.I are happy with the status quo, with contiguous normalization and social integration this figure will increase... 32 county republicanism is on it's last legs, tick tock...
 

Analyzer

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
46,201
Estragon, I presume that you are a Northern Nationalist, with SF leanings.

The biggest problem that SF faces, when it demands that Northerners join with the south, is the fact that the 26 county state has descended into a hellhole in the last twenty years.

This is not an issue of religion, or national feelings.

Quite simply the Dublin regime has become corrupt, compromised, incompetent, and often outright embarrassing.

How else could you explain the antagonism that exists in border areas towards Dublin ?

In other words, northerners, on the whole, are now less convinced than ever of the merits of joining the south.

And that is something that the institutional state in the south must take responsibility for. The sceptics are right. We were a Free State. And for a while we were a Republic. We descended into a mildly Fascistic state around 1987 when CJH decided to allow the bosses of oligopolistic players in IBEC and union fat cats to have a say in the running of the state. We became a less free state in a series of stages, staring with the Maastricht Treaty about the same time.

In essence, an increasing number of Northerners are realising that liberty in the South is a facade. Equality is an excuse for more extortion from those that work hard. Democracy is a fig leaf for lies to the people like the Five Point Pla - as plump bunny said about how he says certain things to get elected. And the state itself is rotting. It cannot even be called a Free State anymore. It is no longer free. Just look at the behaviour of government ministers evertime Barrosso farts.

Estragon, all I can recommend is that you make sure that your own personal liberty and freedom are protected. And that your families welfare is accounted for. Put that first, in an honourable way. Because we are governed by shysters who put it first in a dishonourable manner.
 

Mackers

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,526
The problem with the latest row about the flying of the flag is someone in Unionist land came up with a big idea in the form of 40000 leaflets attacking the Alliance Party. In that leaflet they lit a fuse that exploded in their faces.

Here's the deal the Belfast City Council is paid for by the rate payers of that city. This means that what goes on in it is the sole responsibility of those said rate payers. Some time back in an election the people in it's baliwick went to the bother to vote and with that as a fact changed the times when the flag in question is flown. Ergo there is no way protests violent or not can be allowed to usurp this democratic decision. To let this be the case would be both wrong and dangerous for everyone.
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,811
The problem with the latest row about the flying of the flag is someone in Unionist land came up with a big idea in the form of 40000 leaflets attacking the Alliance Party. In that leaflet they lit a fuse that exploded in their faces.

Here's the deal the Belfast City Council is paid for by the rate payers of that city. This means that what goes on in it is the sole responsibility of those said rate payers. Some time back in an election the people in it's baliwick went to the bother to vote and with that as a fact changed the times when the flag in question is flown. Ergo there is no way protests violent or not can be allowed to usurp this democratic decision. To let this be the case would be both wrong and dangerous for everyone.
The problem with the flag coming down is Bloody Friday, as the problem with the Pat Finucane murder is the Edgar Graham murder. Alliance just caught the flack in what was a cynical nationalist move. A bit more nuance is required.
 

james toney

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
15,978
Estragon is right,Unionists just couldn't stomach the democratic vote on the flag issue.
Some leadership and reality is required for unionists.
 

shiel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
16,887
After the Good Friday agreement I thought we were all into reconciliation on this island after 800 years of strife. The OP is an awful manifestation that that is not the case.

The reaction to the flag issue is a further manifestation that that is not the case.

The various posts on this forum around that issue is a manifestation that that is not the case.

As an Irish nationalist who had reservations about the Good Friday agreement but who accepts the vote of the overwhelming majority of people on this island my question is can all of us not cop ourselves on.

Having a row about how many times a flag is flown over some building in Belfast when we are all in the middle of a major recession is ************************************g brain dead.
 

Mackers

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
5,526
The problem with the flag coming down is Bloody Friday, as the problem with the Pat Finucane murder is the Edgar Graham murder. Alliance just caught the flack in what was a cynical nationalist move. A bit more nuance is required.
Wes I wish life was that simple. For every atrocity you have put forward is another. So somewhere in all this there has to be a line drawn. I speak as someone who lost a family member. The day we buried our family member we all talked to each other and decided that there was no way we would inflict what we were going through on another human being.

The person we buried was very religious, as you may, or may not know, I am not. But I can tell you without a word of a lie, that the person we buried that day would rather be where they are today. Than where the person who killed them is.
 

Dublin 4

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
12,993
Estragon - I hope you stay on the site that was a great OP.

Many Catholics have said they were "Northern Irish" as their names & address were on the Census forms.

In a secret ballot election they vote for Nationalist Parties - not Unionist Parties.

Being "Irish" in the eyes of a Loyalist/Unionist Census reader could damage one's health/career...
 

Glenshane4

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
9,632
I think people in the Republic have enough to be worried about than the incessant whinnings of Nordies. If ye want to stay in the Union or join the Republic, sort it out on the quiet yourselves and when ye have an answer, let us down here know and we'll vote on it then if we can afford ye.
Bye.
That is a reasonable attitude. Unfortunately, many of your fellow Eirefolk do not behave as you advise and persist in preaching at Northern Ireland Catholics. For example the recent sermons directed at Northern Ireland Catholics about annoying all those ever-so-nice Prods by removing their anti-Catholic tribal emblem from Belfast City Hall.

I really do wish that all you Eirefolk would forget than Northern Ireland exists or ever did exist. I am tired of be-nice-to-Prod sermons from silly Southerners who have lived and continue to live at a safe distance from the Prods. Please use your influence to persuade all Eirefolk to disengage from Northern Ireland and let us do our own thing in our own province.
 

tokkie

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2011
Messages
18,895
I'm signing off p.ie after this. Before that I wanted to put down a few points for consideration.

Earlier this year we had the Solemn Ulster Covenant celebrations. The response to this and analysis offered in the media was largely uncritical.

What the Covenant was all about was a subversion of democracy.

A few short months later and we have Belfast City Council taking a democratic vote. The Unionist response was predictable. It is the way Unionists always respond in situations like this. They resort to violence. It is the survival reflex which has served them so eminently down the centuries.
Again, we are seeing little critical analysis of this subversion of democracy in the media. In point of fact we are being treated to hand-wringing pieces where journos head into east Belfast and Sandy Row trying to 'understand' the misunderstood Unionist.

What we hear is a lot of crap about Unionists feeling their identity is under seige. Is this what your identity is? Shoving the union jack down the throat of a city that doesn't want it? Actually, that is precisely what it is. They certainly don't want a tricolour on top of city hall alongside the union jack. They don't want equality, they want dominance. That was the very foundation of the six county entity.

When we think of some of the sickening crap Unionists have pulled in city hall down the years, their reaction to this has been simultaneously predictable and hilarious. It has made the sight of that bare flag pole all the sweeter.

Folks in the 26 counties may labour under the illusion that this is of no relevance to them.

The remorseless shift in demography begs to differ.

I have said previously that the greatest assurance of a united Ireland is that Unionists just keep on being Unionists.

What the past few days have seen is an object demonstration that Unionists just can't help being Unionists. That instinctive hatred of Fenians is just too sodden in their marrow for them to allow reason and cool political calculation to trump their need for violence and bloodlust when confronted with Catholics getting 'beyond their station'.

Many commentators on the census have comforted themselves with the delusion that half these Catholics are really green Brits. Perhaps that's the case, but I can tell you this, I've yet to come across a Catholic who isn't quite pleased to see that flag down. And it’s just a sign of things to come.

As the Nationalist proportion of the population passes out the Unionist, then they will feel less and less obligated to put up with the innumerable signs of Unionists domination we have shoved down our throat day and daily. Why should they? They're running the show. If they want to name streets after Daniel O'Connell, who's going to stop them? If they want to fund huge St Patrick's day festivities who's going to stop them? If they want to give more grants to the GAA than they do to soccer, who's going to stop them? If a majority Catholic police force starts making life difficult in East Belfast, who exactly is going to cry tears over it?

These are just a few examples off the top of my head of what an ever more nationalist six counties hold in store for unionism. A lot of it will only be a leveling of the playing field. But as unionism has amply demonstrated they are totally incapable of dealing with that without resorting to violence.

The flag on City Hall is just the thinnest end of the wedge. There is much, much more where that came from.

And how does this have relevance for the average denizen of the 26 counties?

Having seen the reaction to a fairly trivial recognition of demographic realities in Belfast, it does not take much imagination to project that coming years hold in store a steady rise of tensions in the six counties.

Now here is the key point.

Unionists will be Unionists. They will be seeking to bring violence into the equation at every perceived provocation. Little comprehending that in doing so they are turning soft Catholic opinion against the union. By constantly resorting to violence Unionists will make it abundantly clear to those Catholics not already switched on to the fact, that Unionist don't consider a six counties where they are EQUAL to Nationalists worth living in. That was never the point of the six counties.

As violence escalates frightened and newly politicised Nationalists will be faced with a two choices, both of which will be grim for Unionism.

1. They use the organs of the state, which they will then dominate, to treat unionists just as they treated nationalists throughout the Troubles.

2. They vote the six counties into a united Ireland to definitively secure their safety.

Ironically, the way things are going and current patterns of behaviour, the best unionism can now hope for is a United Ireland.

The 26 counties need to pay very careful attention to what is happening in the six counites, for this is an issue that will only play ever increasing importance in the political dialogue of the island. The government needs to be planning now for both eventualities. Part of that should see a realistic discussion started in society about how we deal with a majority nationalist six counties and unionism in a tailspin towards civil war.

The section 31 policy on this site is stupid, bone-headed, duplicitous, amoral and anti-intellectual. But it is perhaps in facilitating and fomenting ignorance on what will become a defining political development of our generation that its greatest folly lies.

When the policy is dropped I'll return. Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the slow turn of the screw.
You're giving recent events in NI way too much credence.
 

ruserious

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,597
That is a reasonable attitude. Unfortunately, many of your fellow Eirefolk do not behave as you advise and persist in preaching at Northern Ireland Catholics. For example the recent sermons directed at Northern Ireland Catholics about annoying all those ever-so-nice Prods by removing their anti-Catholic tribal emblem from Belfast City Hall.

I really do wish that all you Eirefolk would forget than Northern Ireland exists or ever did exist. I am tired of be-nice-to-Prod sermons from silly Southerners who have lived and continue to live at a safe distance from the Prods. Please use your influence to persuade all Eirefolk to disengage from Northern Ireland and let us do our own thing in our own province.
Perhaps you can be reasonable and refer to my people as the Irish rather than Eirefolk. Give a little, take a little.
 

True Republican

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
4,067
fianna fails economic destruction of ireland has probably put back the possibility of a united ireland for at least the next 25 years. Plus a substantial minority of catholics in the 6 counties would vote no to a united ireland.
 
Top