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Reform in teaching of Irish per Diarmuid MacAneaspag.

returning officer

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Des Bishop (of all people) raised an important point on the teaching of the Irish language on the Late Late Show on Friday. He was able to reach the same proficiency in Irish as 14 to 16 year olds in "irish college", in 4 months.

He proposed two levels:
A) Spoken, comprehension of oral and written irish.
B) The poems, stories, essays for the higher level students (or swats as he called them).

Would the Irish language be better served if the written exams were not mandatory, but all students had to undergo just the oral and aural exams?

(Could those who propose the abolition of irish as a national/notional language and other anti-Irish rants take it to the thread on that campaign? Go raibh maith agaibh).
 


greengoose

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returning officer said:
Des Bishop (of all people) raised an important point on the teaching of the Irish language on the Late Late Show on Friday. He was able to reach the same proficiency in Irish as 14 to 16 year olds in "irish college", in 4 months.

He proposed two levels:
A) Spoken, comprehension of oral and written irish.
B) The poems, stories, essays for the higher level students (or swats as he called them).

Would the Irish language be better served if the written exams were not mandatory, but all students had to undergo just the oral and aural exams?

(Could those who propose the abolition of irish as a national/notional language and other anti-Irish rants take it to the thread on that campaign? Go raibh maith agaibh).
Good old Des Bishop! Did he address his balloney as gaeilge and if so (whioch I doubt) did yez all understand. He learns what he learns to make money. His comedy is poor and he does it in deprived areas for impact. Now maybe Hanafin would give him a job... :p
 

Lord of Kerry

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It is quiet clear that school teaching of Irish is just not working, students are leaving school without a basic understanding of the language. Perhaps the Welsh system may be a good example eo follow there certainly seems to be more of an appreciation of their language over there
 

The Earl of Desmond

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Well I can't remember ever once having an conversation in Irish in my whole life - it was all about just learning things off by heart to pass an exam. I pity the poor person who does the aural - it must be weird speaking to young adults as if they were 4 year olds.

Israel has managed to make Hebrew a spoken language - as opposed to a language were people just learnt bits off by heart for religious stuff like some peoplel earnt bits of Latin but can't actually speak Latin - as well as English in under 50 years so if Israel can have a dual language why can't we?
 

onthefence

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im more concerned about the kids leaving scholl that cant read, write or do maths
 

Riadach

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It's similar to something I'd be in favour of.

Firstly, a separation of Irish teaching into Irish for native Irish speakers (or gaelscoilites) and Irish for English speakers. It is ridiculous to hold two different groups to the same standard.

The Irish for Irish speakers course will be similar to the English course wherein literature, mechanics, essay-writing, vocabulary expanision, debating, should be dealt with within the language.


Secondly, for teaching Irish as a 'foreign' language TIFL:), we should transfer emphasis from literature to language acquisition at all levels. Literature will be consulted of course to provide examples of the language in use, but literary criticism will not be expected. Further to this, and more importantly, more emphasis should be placed on the communicative competence at oral and aural levels, and writing ability should be of secondary importance but still a part of the course. Is beatha teanga í a labhairt, as they say.

Thirdly a new separate optional course should appear at junior and senior cycles called Litríocht na Gaeilge. This would be a course designed to expose students, with reasonably good Irish from the main course or primary school, analysing literature, be they short-films, drama, poetry, short-stories novellas, and in the senior cycle novellas. It should be designed that anyone who does well on the main course, should be able to do exceptionally well in this course, providing an added incentive to individuals who are good at the language. It should deal with mostly modern authors, ní dhomhnaill ó searcaigh de paor, ní ghráda, ó conghaile, titley, and the most exceptional of traditional ones (ó conaire, mac grianna, perhaps even pearse ó díreáin, ó ríordáin). No autobiographies!!!!!!!
 
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returning officer,

Definitely.

Riadach,

Good thinking.

I suspect however that they will never change anything as the current methods of teaching Irish (many many people do actualy manage to learn but) are designed by elements in the Roinn Éadóchais to fail.
 

jdckelly

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Speaking it should be the priority not writing. After all in the oral didn't we all only learn to speak only what we could get away with. Looking back I wish I had done more towards learning Irish.
 

Lord of Kerry

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Riadach said:
It's similar to something I'd be in favour of.

Firstly, a separation of Irish teaching into Irish for native Irish speakers (or gaelscoilites) and Irish for English speakers. It is ridiculous to hold two different groups to the same standard.

The Irish for Irish speakers course will be similar to the English course wherein literature, mechanics, essay-writing, vocabulary expanision, debating, should be dealt with within the language.


Secondly, for teaching Irish as a 'foreign' language TIFL:), we should transfer emphasis from literature to language acquisition at all levels. Literature will be consulted of course to provide examples of the language in use, but literary criticism will not be expected. Further to this, and more importantly, more emphasis should be placed on the communicative competence at oral and aural levels, and writing ability should be of secondary importance but still a part of the course. Is beatha teanga í a labhairt, as they say.

Thirdly a new separate optional course should appear at junior and senior cycles called Litríocht na Gaeilge. This would be a course designed to expose students, with reasonably good Irish from the main course or primary school, analysing literature, be they short-films, drama, poetry, short-stories novellas, and in the senior cycle novellas. It should be designed that anyone who does well on the main course, should be able to do exceptionally well in this course, providing an added incentive to individuals who are good at the language. It should deal with mostly modern authors, ní dhomhnaill ó searcaigh de paor, ní ghráda, ó conghaile, titley, and the most exceptional of traditional ones (ó conaire, mac grianna, perhaps even pearse ó díreáin, ó ríordáin). No autobiographies!!!!!!!
100% agree, excellent
 

Jim236

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I watched his interview on Friday and couldn't agree more with his suggestion, I've always taught the same, but I really doubt Hanafin will take any notice.
 

Fun with Irish

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Lord of Kerry said:
Riadach said:
It's similar to something I'd be in favour of.

Firstly, a separation of Irish teaching into Irish for native Irish speakers (or gaelscoilites) and Irish for English speakers. It is ridiculous to hold two different groups to the same standard.

The Irish for Irish speakers course will be similar to the English course wherein literature, mechanics, essay-writing, vocabulary expanision, debating, should be dealt with within the language.


Secondly, for teaching Irish as a 'foreign' language TIFL:), we should transfer emphasis from literature to language acquisition at all levels. Literature will be consulted of course to provide examples of the language in use, but literary criticism will not be expected. Further to this, and more importantly, more emphasis should be placed on the communicative competence at oral and aural levels, and writing ability should be of secondary importance but still a part of the course. Is beatha teanga í a labhairt, as they say.

Thirdly a new separate optional course should appear at junior and senior cycles called Litríocht na Gaeilge. This would be a course designed to expose students, with reasonably good Irish from the main course or primary school, analysing literature, be they short-films, drama, poetry, short-stories novellas, and in the senior cycle novellas. It should be designed that anyone who does well on the main course, should be able to do exceptionally well in this course, providing an added incentive to individuals who are good at the language. It should deal with mostly modern authors, ní dhomhnaill ó searcaigh de paor, ní ghráda, ó conghaile, titley, and the most exceptional of traditional ones (ó conaire, mac grianna, perhaps even pearse ó díreáin, ó ríordáin). No autobiographies!!!!!!!
100% agree, excellent

All schemes, including sensible ones like this one, sooner or later come up against one central challenge: must Irish be a compulsory subject for all pupils in all classes in all schools up to Leaving Cert? If everybody must sit in Irish class, including those without motivation for learning it as a language but only because they must have it to get into university, then it inevitably has the consequence that the general standard of Irish in such a class will be low. Priority will have to be given by the teacher to getting the minimum mark for the maximum number of pupils rather than on achieving excellence for the engaged minority of students. After 80 years of it, we know the result of compulsion in this context. Why does it continue?
 

Jim236

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Fun with Irish said:
[quote="Lord of Kerry":3o8bs4fu]
Riadach said:
It's similar to something I'd be in favour of.

Firstly, a separation of Irish teaching into Irish for native Irish speakers (or gaelscoilites) and Irish for English speakers. It is ridiculous to hold two different groups to the same standard.

The Irish for Irish speakers course will be similar to the English course wherein literature, mechanics, essay-writing, vocabulary expanision, debating, should be dealt with within the language.


Secondly, for teaching Irish as a 'foreign' language TIFL:), we should transfer emphasis from literature to language acquisition at all levels. Literature will be consulted of course to provide examples of the language in use, but literary criticism will not be expected. Further to this, and more importantly, more emphasis should be placed on the communicative competence at oral and aural levels, and writing ability should be of secondary importance but still a part of the course. Is beatha teanga í a labhairt, as they say.

Thirdly a new separate optional course should appear at junior and senior cycles called Litríocht na Gaeilge. This would be a course designed to expose students, with reasonably good Irish from the main course or primary school, analysing literature, be they short-films, drama, poetry, short-stories novellas, and in the senior cycle novellas. It should be designed that anyone who does well on the main course, should be able to do exceptionally well in this course, providing an added incentive to individuals who are good at the language. It should deal with mostly modern authors, ní dhomhnaill ó searcaigh de paor, ní ghráda, ó conghaile, titley, and the most exceptional of traditional ones (ó conaire, mac grianna, perhaps even pearse ó díreáin, ó ríordáin). No autobiographies!!!!!!!
100% agree, excellent

All schemes, including sensible ones like this one, sooner or later come up against one central challenge: must Irish be a compulsory subject for all pupils in all classes in all schools up to Leaving Cert? If everybody must sit in Irish class, including those without motivation for learning it as a language but only because they must have it to get into university, then it inevitably has the consequence that the general standard of Irish in such a class will be low. Priority will have to be given by the teacher to getting the minimum mark for the maximum number of pupils rather than on achieving excellence for the engaged minority of students. After 80 years of it, we know the result of compulsion in this context. Why does it continue?[/quote:3o8bs4fu]

A lot of people only get a grasp for Irish when doing their Leaving Cert so if you were to make it optional for the Leaving, then I guarantee you most people would drop if after the Junior and will probably regret doing so later on. I hated Irish myself when doing the Junior Cert and going into 5th year I started to gain an appreciation for the subject and actually really enjoyed learning it, I know had I been given the option of dropping it after the Junior I would've, so personally I'm glad it was compulsory. I think I have a good standard of Irish now, but my problem is I can't use it. If I were to walk into a shop tomorrow in town and ask for something as Gaeilge I'd be shown the door. I think thats the main problem with the language that needs to be tackled, otherwise 5 years down the line when peoples Irish may improve as a result of more emphasis on oral Irish, people still won't be able to use it.
 

Riadach

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You just need to know where to go sometimes though.
 

Fun with Irish

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Jim236 said:
Fun with Irish said:
[quote="Lord of Kerry":1tq0o6v6]
Riadach said:
It's similar to something I'd be in favour of.

Firstly, a separation of Irish teaching into Irish for native Irish speakers (or gaelscoilites) and Irish for English speakers. It is ridiculous to hold two different groups to the same standard.

The Irish for Irish speakers course will be similar to the English course wherein literature, mechanics, essay-writing, vocabulary expanision, debating, should be dealt with within the language.


Secondly, for teaching Irish as a 'foreign' language TIFL:), we should transfer emphasis from literature to language acquisition at all levels. Literature will be consulted of course to provide examples of the language in use, but literary criticism will not be expected. Further to this, and more importantly, more emphasis should be placed on the communicative competence at oral and aural levels, and writing ability should be of secondary importance but still a part of the course. Is beatha teanga í a labhairt, as they say.

Thirdly a new separate optional course should appear at junior and senior cycles called Litríocht na Gaeilge. This would be a course designed to expose students, with reasonably good Irish from the main course or primary school, analysing literature, be they short-films, drama, poetry, short-stories novellas, and in the senior cycle novellas. It should be designed that anyone who does well on the main course, should be able to do exceptionally well in this course, providing an added incentive to individuals who are good at the language. It should deal with mostly modern authors, ní dhomhnaill ó searcaigh de paor, ní ghráda, ó conghaile, titley, and the most exceptional of traditional ones (ó conaire, mac grianna, perhaps even pearse ó díreáin, ó ríordáin). No autobiographies!!!!!!!
100% agree, excellent

All schemes, including sensible ones like this one, sooner or later come up against one central challenge: must Irish be a compulsory subject for all pupils in all classes in all schools up to Leaving Cert? If everybody must sit in Irish class, including those without motivation for learning it as a language but only because they must have it to get into university, then it inevitably has the consequence that the general standard of Irish in such a class will be low. Priority will have to be given by the teacher to getting the minimum mark for the maximum number of pupils rather than on achieving excellence for the engaged minority of students. After 80 years of it, we know the result of compulsion in this context. Why does it continue?
A lot of people only get a grasp for Irish when doing their Leaving Cert so if you were to make it optional for the Leaving, then I guarantee you most people would drop if after the Junior and will probably regret doing so later on. I hated Irish myself when doing the Junior Cert and going into 5th year I started to gain an appreciation for the subject and actually really enjoyed learning it, I know had I been given the option of dropping it after the Junior I would've, so personally I'm glad it was compulsory. I think I have a good standard of Irish now, but my problem is I can't use it. If I were to walk into a shop tomorrow in town and ask for something as Gaeilge I'd be shown the door. I think thats the main problem with the language that needs to be tackled, otherwise 5 years down the line when peoples Irish may improve as a result of more emphasis on oral Irish, people still won't be able to use it.[/quote:1tq0o6v6]

Alright. I asked you if Irish should be compulsory for the Leaving Cert and you replied, that given your own positive experience, it should be. And you believe that if Irish were made a subject of choice many pupils would not choose it and would thereby be deprived of the possibility of such an experience as yours. But the result of choosing any subject must entail a loss in relation to some other one. The pupil who chooses Geography will thereby lose the benefits of studying Accountancy or German. So my next question: why must the study of Irish, alone of all the subjects, be legally compulsory? If, after studying Irish for ten years, the sixteen year old pupil and his/her advisers decide to drop it in favour of (say) German, why should that choice be blocked?
 

morgath

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as a current leaving cert. student i have to say that the way hat Irish is taught in our schools is a shambles. The coarse focuses on irish literature, analysis of irish poety and pros, it needs to be taught as a foreign language like french or german. Upon entering the secondary school system ones irish is expected to have all grammer and rules learnt and rarely revise them. After 6 years learning german i have to say i know far more about the language and its usage then irish which i have been learning since junior infants. The irish teachers do the best they can ut the coarse itself is in need of updating to tackle problems of fluencey experienced by the vast majority of students that i know.

Mar a deir an sheanfhocail, ' Mol an oige agus tiocfaigh si ' .
 

Fun with Irish

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morgath said:
as a current leaving cert. student i have to say that the way hat Irish is taught in our schools is a shambles. The coarse focuses on irish literature, analysis of irish poety and pros, it needs to be taught as a foreign language like french or german. Upon entering the secondary school system ones irish is expected to have all grammer and rules learnt and rarely revise them. After 6 years learning german i have to say i know far more about the language and its usage then irish which i have been learning since junior infants. The irish teachers do the best they can ut the coarse itself is in need of updating to tackle problems of fluencey experienced by the vast majority of students that i know.

Mar a deir an sheanfhocail, ' Mol an oige agus tiocfaigh si ' .
Yes: the teaching of Irish is a shambles. But this is not a result of bad design of the course or the weakness of the teachers. It is the result of the confusion of purpose in making Irish compulsory for all students. In your German class every pupil is present in the room because they want to learn German and having chosen it they want to master it, and so a high level of achievement can result. In the Irish class the pupils are there under compulsion and for many the only aim is to get the minimum achievement required for getting into university. So what average level of achievemnt can be expected in that class? Which brings us back to your quotation: "Mol an oige agus tiochfaidh si!", which surely means the exact opposite of compulsion. You can force people to yield to compulsion for as long as they are in your power, but you can't force knowledge on them. It's as simple as that.
 

morgath

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[/quote] Which brings us back to your quotation: "Mol an oige agus tiochfaidh si!", which surely means the exact opposite of compulsion. You can force people to yield to compulsion for as long as they are in your power, but you can't force knowledge on them. It's as simple as that.[/quote]

the saying that i quoted means encourage the young and they will flourish. how is it possible to encourage the young to learn to speak and appreciate a language thats is taught as if we all know and are fluent in irish whereas it should be taught as a forign language due to the fact amoung many of us it is alien.
 

Fun with Irish

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Which brings us back to your quotation: "Mol an oige agus tiochfaidh si!", which surely means the exact opposite of compulsion. You can force people to yield to compulsion for as long as they are in your power, but you can't force knowledge on them. It's as simple as that.[/quote]

the saying that i quoted means encourage the young and they will flourish. how is it possible to encourage the young to learn to speak and appreciate a language thats is taught as if we all know and are fluent in irish whereas it should be taught as a forign language due to the fact amoung many of us it is alien.[/quote]

But will you agree that there is a problem in starting a process with a 16-year old saying "you'll sit there and take this lesson whether you want it or not", even if you then proceed to give a well taught course? Or if the inner intent of the pupil is to do the minimum necessary to acheive a non-liguistic objective? Secondly: the problem with teaching Irish as a foreign language, which would be logical in the teaching context, is that it would be an admission that it is not the language of this country. And this is impossible in the political context.
 


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