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Regarding future of funding Irish universities,will funding experience of most successful international universities be looked at?

patslatt

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Regarding future of funding Irish universities,will funding experience of most successful international universities be looked at?

See Cassells report on third-level funding lays out the options

Some would like free or almost totally free universities like those in the rich continental EU countries, suggesting the funding should come from increasing taxes on employers. But that would mean the end of the 12.5% corporate tax rate which is a core strategy for economic growth driven by multinationals. As for potential increases in Irish income taxation and VAT, those taxes are already among the highest among the rich EU countries-without corresponding rich EU country benefits.

An interesting issue is the quality of free EU rich country universities. In international surveys https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2016/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/100/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only, they rank poorly compared to universities in England, Canada,Australia and the USA, all of which charge large fees. A UK academic argued that EU universities provide low quality "factory education" due to inadequate funding. It seems government funding of universities ranks low in political priorities compared to public sector pay, pensions, social welfare, hospitals and constituency projects.

The UK academic felt that the US model that combines student fees with government grants to universities was the best model. For instance,the state system of public universities in California has been very successful historically. See https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm for fees at UCLA which along with Berkeley rank as the two most popular universities in the public system.

Helping students with fees,US federal student loans are very generous but can't be erased in bankruptcy. While the loans have been used successfully by students with good high schools education, many students with inferior education who attended private colleges with low entrance standards have defaulted on billions of loans. Sooner or later, those loans will be written off for political reasons.

In the linked article, one of the Cassells report's options "involves student loans, which would mean scrapping fees, with higher education free at the point of entry for all students, and with loan repayments related to the income in employment of a graduate." Scrapping fees is a highly dangerous option for third level institutions as it could leave them in a financially weak position totally dependant on the state if a future government in a populist gesture decided that repaying student loans was too onerous for many low income graduates. Given very high marginal Irish income tax rates of 53% just above average incomes, repaying student loans could indeed prove onerous.
 
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cyberianpan

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Under Fine Gael's "Green Jerseyfication" of 3rd level, and focus on revenue generating research, the "brown envelope" culture has eroded the independence and value of 3rd Level.

Lectureships went to people most able to attract funding, i.e. politically well connected Irish. These same goons, had teaching duties, and they performed poorly

Due to Fine Gael, we've had racist corruption of the sector, I'm dubious of good money been thrown after bad, so any review of undergraduate fees, needs to undo the Fine Gael corruption

cyp
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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When Donogh O'Malley introduced free secondary education, in the 1960s, it was at a time when secondary education was the highest level of education required by the majority of citizens. At a time when this country wasn't rich.

It's widely viewed as a hugely successful and progressive policy.

However, in 2016, when third level education is considered the bare minimum to allow this country to compete internationally for jobs, apparently the idea of the State paying for it is somehow viewed as wrong.

This attitude, in my view, is reflective of the normalising of right wing views.
 

Analyzer

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I am rather concerned about Ireland's most subsidised third level body also being the focus of some very dodgy private sector money.

The Denis O'Brien centre for science ? From somebody who was not a great student, & who never studies science in third level ? Surely an O'Brien centre for Taxation Studies would be a better fit ? Or maybe DOB centre for law considering his tendency to send out solicitor's letters ? And then there is the Moriarty Tribunal.

Throw in rich plutocrat Suds funding a centre for Law & Smurfit a Business School & you get a lot on controversy.

Maybe a Cowen gym or a Coughlin school of Darwinian Relativity are next in line ?

Belfield is becomming a joke.
 

patslatt

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Under Fine Gael's "Green Jerseyfication" of 3rd level, and focus on revenue generating research, the "brown envelope" culture has eroded the independence and value of 3rd Level.

Lectureships went to people most able to attract funding, i.e. politically well connected Irish. These same goons, had teaching duties, and they performed poorly

Due to Fine Gael, we've had racist corruption of the sector, I'm dubious of good money been thrown after bad, so any review of undergraduate fees, needs to undo the Fine Gael corruption

cyp
LECTURING AND TEACHING

University academics make their reputations and that of their university in published research,as indicated by the phrase "publish or perish" in America where lecturing and teaching are not highly respected and left to PhD students. In the UK, the government says it intends to tackle the poor quality of lecturing in many institutions.
 

patslatt

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When Donogh O'Malley introduced free secondary education, in the 1960s, it was at a time when secondary education was the highest level of education required by the majority of citizens. At a time when this country wasn't rich.

It's widely viewed as a hugely successful and progressive policy.

However, in 2016, when third level education is considered the bare minimum to allow this country to compete internationally for jobs, apparently the idea of the State paying for it is somehow viewed as wrong.

This attitude, in my view, is reflective of the normalising of right wing views.
FREE INFERIOR THIRD LEVEL EDUCATION

The reality is that expensive third level education will not be properly funded by politicians as rich continental EU countries demonstrate. Few free EU universities rank in the top 100 globally in surveys.

In Irish general elections, issues like nurses and garda pay, old age pensions and hospitals dominate electioneering, with hardly a mention of third level funding.
 
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patslatt

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I am rather concerned about Ireland's most subsidised third level body also being the focus of some very dodgy private sector money.

The Denis O'Brien centre for science ? From somebody who was not a great student, & who never studies science in third level ? Surely an O'Brien centre for Taxation Studies would be a better fit ? Or maybe DOB centre for law considering his tendency to send out solicitor's letters ? And then there is the Moriarty Tribunal.

Throw in rich plutocrat Suds funding a centre for Law & Smurfit a Business School & you get a lot on controversy.

Maybe a Cowen gym or a Coughlin school of Darwinian Relativity are next in line ?

Belfield is becomming a joke.
IVY LEAGUE
The Ivy League universities like Harvard and Yale depend heavily on huge gifts from successful graduates. Harvard became a self perpetuating meritocracy by recruiting its very clever student body largely on scholarships made possible by the university's huge trust fund of €20 billion plus.
 
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wombat

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However, in 2016, when third level education is considered the bare minimum to allow this country to compete internationally for jobs, apparently the idea of the State paying for it is somehow viewed as wrong..
You may consider a 3rd level education to be the bare minimum needed to allow the country to compete internationally but its not the belief in other countries. Just as not every 2nd level student is interested in academic subjects, there are many successful people who have not gone to 3rd level education. We have a basic problem with snobbery when it comes to education and it results in students studying courses which leave them unemployed, if not unemployable.
 

Carlos Danger

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ANCO: bring it back.
The Techs: bring them back too.

Far too many people go to college/university these days who neither need to nor have an aptitude for. They go because everyone else is doing it, and it'll be a bit of a laugh, and sher, it's basically free.
 

Carlos Danger

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You may consider a 3rd level education to be the bare minimum needed to allow the country to compete internationally but its not the belief in other countries. Just as not every 2nd level student is interested in academic subjects, there are many successful people who have not gone to 3rd level education. We have a basic problem with snobbery when it comes to education and it results in students studying courses which leave them unemployed, if not unemployable.
Broadly agree with you there, wombat, but I'd qualify the "unemployed, if not unemployable" bit with "in their chosen field".
 

wombat

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Broadly agree with you there, wombat, but I'd qualify the "unemployed, if not unemployable" bit with "in their chosen field".
That's the point, their chosen field may be their parents' chosen field - the original RTCs were intended to provide 3rd level technical education to certificate or diploma level in specialised fields which were in demand. Now we have ITs across the state awarding degrees to whoever demands one - a degree should be an academic qualification, not something awarded after attending a 3 or 4 year course.
 

Brera

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There is certainly a snobbery element in this country towards third level education. Not everyone is suited to college and we really need to invest in alternatives, such as apprenticeships.

The biggest myth about third level education is using the word free. It's not free. The question is whether is should be free at point entry or not. In which case do you pay it for through an increase in general taxation, whereby everyone pays for it. Or do you go down the route of student loans, with only those who obtain a degree having to pay. I have heard considerable talk of people arguing that with a loan based system that students tend to value their education better, but I'm not convinced.

It's worth nothing that one of the reasons for the Celtic tiger was our highly skilled work force, with a large number of people managing to obtain a college education by borrowing from the local credit union.

The report does tell us though that we have a massive funding shortfall in the sector. Unfortunately this government is too weak to address it. FF won't want to be seen as introducing loans or increasing fees. So the sector will end up continuing to suffer.
 

wombat

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The report does tell us though that we have a massive funding shortfall in the sector. Unfortunately this government is too weak to address it. FF won't want to be seen as introducing loans or increasing fees. So the sector will end up continuing to suffer.
I will be more interested in seeing what approach Bruton takes. There is no chance that the current Dail will address the problem but it may be possible to frame a policy for the next Dail. We know nothing is free, the question is who pays and how much?
 

patslatt

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You may consider a 3rd level education to be the bare minimum needed to allow the country to compete internationally but its not the belief in other countries. Just as not every 2nd level student is interested in academic subjects, there are many successful people who have not gone to 3rd level education. We have a basic problem with snobbery when it comes to education and it results in students studying courses which leave them unemployed, if not unemployable.
BUSINESS FOCUSED THIRD LEVEL

Many American third level community colleges below the level of the academic "four year degree" colleges have pursued a successful strategy of training students to meet the requirements of businesses in their regions. That strategy requires a disciplined focus on business needs and quick adaptability of curriculums and training, probably requiring considerable autonomy from centralised state government education departments. Given how slowly many ivory tower academic institutions accept change, the strategy is challenging.

Institutes of technology may be better at catering to short term business needs than universities. About 10 years ago, I asked a bright student why she chose Carlow Institute of Technology for a biotech qualification instead of university. She said that Carlow had developed close relations with biotech firms to design courses suited to their needs and manged to place most graduates in biotech jobs.

One problem with the focus on immediate business needs is that it may sacrifice education for training. In the short run, the training may result in a job but when the technology changes, the worker who got short term training may be less employable than the worker who got a broad education in the technology.
 

Dame_Enda

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Universities should be allowed to accept money from advertisers except smoking and alcohol.

In the past I've suggested privatisation or part privatisation. However I've observed the influence this has had in the US where university Presidents have vetoed pro-BDS measures that were voted for by students. I don't want universities being politicised like that. They are already politicised enough.
 

Florence

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I am rather concerned about Ireland's most subsidised third level body also being the focus of some very dodgy private sector money.

The Denis O'Brien centre for science ? From somebody who was not a great student, & who never studies science in third level ? Surely an O'Brien centre for Taxation Studies would be a better fit ? Or maybe DOB centre for law considering his tendency to send out solicitor's letters ? And then there is the Moriarty Tribunal.

Throw in rich plutocrat Suds funding a centre for Law & Smurfit a Business School & you get a lot on controversy.

Maybe a Cowen gym or a Coughlin school of Darwinian Relativity are next in line ?

Belfield is becoming a joke.
Belfield awarded an honorary doctor of laws to that sensitive flower Angela Kerins.... For what?
 

wombat

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Universities should be allowed to accept money from advertisers except smoking and alcohol.

In the past I've suggested privatisation or part privatisation. However I've observed the influence this has had in the US where university Presidents have vetoed pro-BDS measures that were voted for by students. I don't want universities being politicised like that. They are already politicised enough.
There are private colleges awarding degrees, personally, I think it contradicts the idea of a university.
 

bactrian

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Under Fine Gael's "Green Jerseyfication" of 3rd level, and focus on revenue generating research, the "brown envelope" culture has eroded the independence and value of 3rd Level.

Lectureships went to people most able to attract funding, i.e. politically well connected Irish. These same goons, had teaching duties, and they performed poorly

Due to Fine Gael, we've had racist corruption of the sector, I'm dubious of good money been thrown after bad, so any review of undergraduate fees, needs to undo the Fine Gael corruption

cyp
"the "brown envelope" culture "

"Lectureships went to people most able to attract funding, i.e. politically well connected Irish. "

" These same goons, had teaching duties, and they performed poorly"

"we've had racist corruption of the sector, "


There are 4 very serious allegations above and not one shred of proof, evidence, example .

Complete and utter drivel !
 


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