Reject the deal?

Watch The Break

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Two questions to start:

1 - Is the deal in its current form acceptable?

2 - Should the people reject it?
 


Padraigin

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1. No.

2. Yes.

If the Irish people have any hope whatsoever of saving their economy and preserving their own economic future, they need to reject the deal and default immediately on all the debt.

A few months of economic disruption is a far easier price to pay than generations of poverty and the complete destruction of Ireland's economic base.
 

fecker

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Two questions to start:

1 - Is the deal in its current form acceptable?

2 - Should the people reject it?
There are a couple of threads on this which are older so, this will propably be merged, soon. 1 &2 no and yes. In my opinion.
 

westie12

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I feel so sick I can hardly type:mad:

What mechanism is there for the people to reject it. Does this traitorous deal even have to be passed by the dail, or can Biffo just sign us into slavery?
 

scallioneater

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We could reject it, but we would have to do a new budget with 20bn cuts instead of 6bn. And thats probably being optimistic. Do we really want to go there? Don't think so. we need to jettison the casino banks. wonders now long it'll take our bankers to burn through 35bn. anyone want to guess?
 

Watch The Break

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I feel so sick I can hardly type:mad:

What mechanism is there for the people to reject it. Does this traitorous deal even have to be passed by the dail, or can Biffo just sign us into slavery?
Refuse to support any government which does not reject it, refuse to vote for any political party which does not reject it.
 

turdsl

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This is the deal,we have no alternative, Get rid of Fianna Fail in the next few weeks,
make sure they do not see power again.
 

westie12

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But given the way the politics of promise works in this country, let's say if FG and Labour promised to reject it, would you trust them? By the way, this is not a dig at those parties. Words fail me to describe the contempt for these FFers.
At an earlier time in Irish politics, they would have been lined up against a wall and shot.
 

Padraigin

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We could reject it, but we would have to do a new budget with 20bn cuts instead of 6bn. And thats probably being optimistic. Do we really want to go there? Don't think so. we need to jettison the casino banks. wonders now long it'll take our bankers to burn through 35bn. anyone want to guess?

Rejecting this deal is Ireland's only hope for a viable economic future.

Right now, the country needs to get into survival mode and conserve their own resources and their own economy.

Yes, no more loans and funding from outside the country. Ireland will have to survive on its own economy and its own tax base.

Some stuff would have to get nationalized for the short term and price freezes would have to be done. The failed banks would have be jettisoned (something that should have happened long ago) and nationalized and/or new ones chartered.

Ireland would have to get off the euro and go back to its punt. Things would get back to normal fairly quickly once the new currency stabilized.

This is do-able and, no matter the temporary pain, a far, far better option than the deal being proposed.

This could all be over by this time next year with a default. More importantly, Ireland would have a future.

It has no future whatsoever with this deal.
 

Watch The Break

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Burton and Noonan saying this is a bad deal.

On that basis, should their election to office carry a condition of renegotiation?
 

Horses

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Not a cent should be paid on any Derivative. The people who allowed Irish banks to trade derivatives, which are in the words of George Soros ''weapons of mass destruction'' should be tried.

Iceland defaulted on the derivative holdings of banks based in their country and currently they are in recovery. Iceland has also put on trial the regulators of their baking sector. Lessons for Ireland.
 
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Bismarck

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Burton and Noonan saying this is a bad deal.

On that basis, should their election to office carry a condition of renegotiation?
Now there's a shock - Burton says its a bad deal

When we default how do those who call on us to default propose to pay public sector wages, fund social welfare or health at even close to today's levels. We would take a cut in living standards that would make the four year plan seem mild by comparison.

We don't have a choice I am afraid - take the medicine with some hope of recovery or condemn us to economic disaster

I know these views wont go down well here on politics ie but ....
 

Magror14

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Probably as good a deal as we could get. Based on what the secretary general of the Department of Finance was saying the figure of 5.8 is not really the figure as it can be mitigated in a number of ways by the NTMA. Also putting up our pension reserve fund will make us less likely to blow the bailout monies as we will have to go back to the ECB/bond market in the future to prop up our pensions.

We should go with this.

But God help the next Libertarian fecker that I see here posting that the market does not need to be regulated.
 

Bismarck

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Not a cent should be paid on any Derivative. The people who allowed Irish banks to trade derivatives, which are in the words of George Soros ''weapons of mass destruction'' should be tried.

Iceland defaulted on the derivative holdings of banks based in their currently and now they are in recovery. Iceland has also put on trial the regulators of their baking sector. Lessons for Ireland.
What evidence is that we traded derivatives? I can't claim to understand the markets but my understanding is that the Irish banks stayed well clear of this particular instrument during the boom years - is the allegation that the banks used them after the guarantee?
 

Padraigin

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Now there's a shock - Burton says its a bad deal

When we default how do those who call on us to default propose to pay public sector wages, fund social welfare or health at even close to today's levels. We would take a cut in living standards that would make the four year plan seem mild by comparison.

We don't have a choice I am afraid - take the medicine with some hope of recovery or condemn us to economic disaster

I know these views wont go down well here on politics ie but ....

All of those things you worry about are going to happen anyway. This stuff is coming the minute the deal is implemented. The only difference is that every bit of wealth of the country will be in the hands of the foreign creditors. They will make their own profits from what they have taken from Ireland - yet they will continue to demand more and more in repayment from the Irish people who will have less and less to repay with.

Think of Germany post-WWI trying to pay the reparations bill.

Think of the Irish in the past trying to come up with money for the rack rents.

The bad stuff is coming if this deal is accepted.

The best option - the only reasonable option in the view of economists - is to default now before the damage has been done to the economic base of the country.

Keep this as a monetary and fiscal crisis. Default now while Ireland still has its resources, its pension money, its current tax base.

Wipe all the debt out immediately. This will mean that Ireland will not be able to borrow any more money, but it also means that Ireland can stop servicing the debt that it is already paying to foreign banks. That puts more immediate cash into the hands of the Irish government.

All tax revenue will stay in Ireland to be spent on meeting the needs of the Irish people - no one else.

Ireland will have to survive on its own economy and the Irish government will have to maintain a balanced budget - no more borrowing.

Frankly, if you take the proposed budget and wipe away everything that is in there dedicated to serving foreign debt, it would probably be a lot less austere.

Default is a much better optionm
 

Horses

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What evidence is that we traded derivatives?
Where than are they getting the 100 billion Euro figure from? Property speculators? seriously you could add up all the property in Ireland and you still wouldn't come even close to a 100 billion.

This is Derivative speculation bailout by British and American banks and other financial institutions, just as it was with Iceland and the reason why that bankster puppet Gordon Brown threatened to use anti-terrorism legislation against Iceland. The Icelandic people though had courage and integrity and stood up to the bullies.
 

johnnypockets

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We don't have a choice I am afraid - take the medicine with some hope of recovery or condemn us to economic disaster

I know these views wont go down well here on politics ie but ....
How far up the road do you want to kick the can?
 

cocopoppyhead

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Rejecting this deal is Ireland's only hope for a viable economic future.

Right now, the country needs to get into survival mode and conserve their own resources and their own economy.

Yes, no more loans and funding from outside the country. Ireland will have to survive on its own economy and its own tax base.

Some stuff would have to get nationalized for the short term and price freezes would have to be done. The failed banks would have be jettisoned (something that should have happened long ago) and nationalized and/or new ones chartered.

Ireland would have to get off the euro and go back to its punt. Things would get back to normal fairly quickly once the new currency stabilized.

This is do-able and, no matter the temporary pain, a far, far better option than the deal being proposed.

This could all be over by this time next year with a default. More importantly, Ireland would have a future.

It has no future whatsoever with this deal.
we need also to reclaim our oil and gas fields which were "given away", i cannot put a number on how much money our politicians must have pocketed to give away our natural resource.. And it does say in our constitution that our natural resources are owned by the people... So on that basis, I cannot see a reason to prevent us taking them back, or atleast taking a huge stake in the fields.. upwards of 420bn worth are the estimates of their value.
 
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we need also to reclaim our oil and gas fields which were "given away", i cannot put a number on how much money our politicians must have pocketed to give away our natural resource.. And it does say in our constitution that our natural resources are owned by the people... So on that basis, i cannot see a reason to prevent us taking them back, or atleast taking a huge stake in the fields.. Upwards of 420bn worth are the estimates of their value.

+100000
 


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