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Rejoining Commonwealth in return for a United Ireland

Malcolm Redfellow

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The island was partitioned for s reason,the unionist fear that it would be Rome Rule,which proved 100% accurate.
Partition came about because;
  • it suited the Tory Party in England;
  • the UU Clubs (i.e. 'big-house' unionists) saw a way to invent their own little statelet;
  • and both lots were prepared to inflame an insurrection to get their way.
Just so we all know where we're coming from, that catch-cry, "Home Rule is Rome Rule' was first deployed by John Vance (HC Deb 12 July 1871),

The Speaker ruled Vance's remark 'out-of-order'.

Vance, by the by, was something of a carpet-bagger. He was defeated for his first parliamentary attempt, at a by-election for Canterbury in 1847, when his agent was found guilty of bribery. He was then the Orange MP for Dublin City, was again defeated, and re-treaded as unopposed MP for Armagh.
 


Newrybhoy

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Partition came about because;
  • it suited the Tory Party in England;
  • the UU Clubs (i.e. 'big-house' unionists) saw a way to invent their own little statelet;
  • and both lots were prepared to inflame an insurrection to get their way.
Just so we all know where we're coming from, that catch-cry, "Home Rule is Rome Rule' was first deployed by John Vance (HC Deb 12 July 1871),

The Speaker ruled Vance's remark 'out-of-order'.

Vance, by the by, was something of a carpet-bagger. He was defeated for his first parliamentary attempt, at a by-election for Canterbury in 1847, when his agent was found guilty of bribery. He was then the Orange MP for Dublin City, was again defeated, and re-treaded as unopposed MP for Armagh.
Do you dispute that the RCC effectively ran the RoI from inception to the '90s?
 

2lazy

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Do you dispute that the RCC effectively ran the RoI from inception to the '90s?
If Unionism had agreed to Home rule, there would have been no 1916, and the church would have been greatly curtailed - the power of the RCC was to a large extend born out of their support for free state forces in support of the treaty and partition during civil war that followed.
 

Newrybhoy

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If Unionism had agreed to Home rule, there would have been no 1916, and the church would have been greatly curtailed - the power of the RCC was to a large extend born out of their support for free state forces in support of the treaty and partition during civil war that followed.
Pure speculation.

Unlike the prophecy that was fulfilled. The RCC dominated the Republic and Protestantism almost obliterated under its dictats.

The Ulster unionists were 100% on the money.
 

2lazy

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Pure speculation.

Unlike the prophecy that was fulfilled. The RCC dominated the Republic and Protestantism almost obliterated under its dictats.

The Ulster unionists were 100% on the money.
Also and sadly the non RCC faiths north of the border do not have a glowing history in how they treated their Catholic minority
 

petaljam

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If Unionism had agreed to Home rule, there would have been no 1916, and the church would have been greatly curtailed - the power of the RCC was to a large extend born out of their support for free state forces in support of the treaty and partition during civil war that followed.
This, absolutely. The power of the church would have been massively diminished if NI had not existed, first because of the greater numerical influence of Protestants (and TBF to the young republic, it was fairly open to Protestants in its early decades - it took 20+ years for the RCC to establish its political power securely, and was never as openly hostile to them as NI was to its Catholic citizens).

But secondly, the very existence of NI with its deliberate anti Catholic policies helped validate the "religious counterbalance" approach down south. Which of course suited the RCC admirably.
 

petaljam

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Pure speculation.

Unlike the prophecy that was fulfilled. The RCC dominated the Republic and Protestantism almost obliterated under its dictats.

The Ulster unionists were 100% on the money.
And yet they had two Protestant presidents. Out of only nine ever since the state's inception. Pretty good percentage for a minority on the brink of extinction according to you.

And that's two out of five, if we stop in the 1970s, to compare to NI.
How many Catholics held positions in the old Stormont? And no, cleaners don't count.
 

parentheses

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Partition came about because;
  • it suited the Tory Party in England;
  • the UU Clubs (i.e. 'big-house' unionists) saw a way to invent their own little statelet;
  • and both lots were prepared to inflame an insurrection to get their way.
Just so we all know where we're coming from, that catch-cry, "Home Rule is Rome Rule' was first deployed by John Vance (HC Deb 12 July 1871),

The Speaker ruled Vance's remark 'out-of-order'.

Vance, by the by, was something of a carpet-bagger. He was defeated for his first parliamentary attempt, at a by-election for Canterbury in 1847, when his agent was found guilty of bribery. He was then the Orange MP for Dublin City, was again defeated, and re-treaded as unopposed MP for Armagh.
Walter Long, another forgotten name who had a big influence on the history of Ireland.
 

Newrybhoy

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And yet they had two Protestant presidents. Out of only nine ever since the state's inception. Pretty good percentage for a minority on the brink of extinction according to you.

And that's two out of five, if we stop in the 1970s, to compare to NI.
How many Catholics held positions in the old Stormont? And no, cleaners don't count.
2 people appointed to office. None elected by the people. The PM of NI had to be elected, so not comparing like with like.
 

petaljam

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2 people appointed to office. None elected by the people. The PM of NI had to be elected, so not comparing like with like.
Wrong again. One of each.

Hyde was an agreed inter party nominee, so there was no election (which shows that there was no institutional barrier to Protestants, which is funny given that you say the RCC ran the place).

Erskine Childers OTOH stood against an opposing candidate, O'Higgins, so an election was required. So that's the Irish people themselves, so no insurmountable barrier there either.

Now, tell us how many Catholics held similar positions of authority or respect - elected or nominated - in the old NI parliament during the same decades?
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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I leave aside a few tormented souls (why do Fr John Creagh and Oliver J Flanagan, both antisemites of the worst kind, spring to mind?). I can think of no nationalist who ever approached the levels of bigotry and offensive sectarianism managed by ... for the sake of brevity, I'll confine myself to just two exemplars:
  • 14 October 1920, James Craig supporting the expulsion of Catholic workers from the Belfast shipyard:
Do I approve of the action you boys have taken in the past? I say yes.
  • 20 March 1934, Basil Brooke:
I recommend those people who are Loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99% of whom are disloyal. I want you to realise that, having done your bit, you have got your Prime Minister behind you.
  • 21 March 1934, James Craig:
There is no one of my colleagues who does not agree with him [i.e. Brooke, above], and I would not ask him to withdraw one word he said.
  • 24 April, 1934: those preceding speeches led to a motion in Stormont condemning employment of 'disloyalists'. James Craig replied to the debate:
I have always said that I am an Orangeman first and a politician and member of this Parliament afterwards. [...] All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant state. It would be rather interesting for historians of the future to compare a Catholic State launched in the south with a Protestant State launched in the North and see which gets on the better and prospers the more.
 

Newrybhoy

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Catholics were de facto excluded from the politics of Northern Ireland.
No they were not.

There were far more Catholics elected to Stormont than there ever were Protestants elected to the Dail.

The lack of knowledge of the NI electoral system,pre 1969 is quite astounding given the willingness to give opinions on it.
 

2lazy

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No they were not.

There were far more Catholics elected to Stormont than there ever were Protestants elected to the Dail.

The lack of knowledge of the NI electoral system,pre 1969 is quite astounding given the willingness to give opinions on it.
That you could put down to the Unionist Goverments failure to fully implement it's gerrymandering system
 

Barroso

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Who are you to talk of respect?

You have no respect whatsoever for Northern Ireland or its people,instead pretending that it doesn't exist. The island was partitioned for s reason,the unionist fear that it would be Rome Rule,which proved 100% accurate.

There are two entities on the island of Ireland, as I said, your first task is to accept that.
The only reason that the Free State came to have such a strong catholic ethos is because the non-catholics were such a tiny minority. Even then, Dev's constitution made sure to mention them, and the jews, specifically in the constitution.

If the minority had been 25% as it would have been without partition, the influence of the catholic church would have been severely limited, among other reasons because not all catholics agreed with giving the church so much respect and power.

One interesting thing about the religious aspect of the southern state is that the southern unionists made common cause with Cumann na nGaedhal - the catholic church's favorite party.
 

parentheses

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No they were not.

There were far more Catholics elected to Stormont than there ever were Protestants elected to the Dail.

The lack of knowledge of the NI electoral system,pre 1969 is quite astounding given the willingness to give opinions on it.
But they were permanently excluded from the government. It was a Protestant state for a Protestant people.
 

Barroso

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No they were not.

There were far more Catholics elected to Stormont than there ever were Protestants elected to the Dail.

The lack of knowledge of the NI electoral system,pre 1969 is quite astounding given the willingness to give opinions on it.
As the UUP (a party which didn't admit catholics as members) held a majority of seats in Stormont throughout its existence, it didn't matter how many catholics were elected to it.
BTW - did the proportion of catholics correspond to the proportion in the overall population?
 

Newrybhoy

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As the UUP (a party which didn't admit catholics as members) held a majority of seats in Stormont throughout its existence, it didn't matter how many catholics were elected to it.
BTW - did the proportion of catholics correspond to the proportion in the overall population?
You can check those stats for yourself.
 


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