Renaming of Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda


petaljam

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There is little point in linking to an article describing current practice in this regard. Any discussion of the practice of symphysiotomy back in the 50s and 60s must have regard to the dangers associated with C-section at that time.
You obviously haven't read the 114 page report that Fritzbox linked to. I was giving a little background information as to why the authors of the report had such difficulty finding enough examples of the practice outside of Ireland for comparative purposes. Something they mentioned but which someone who doesn't understand why symphysiotomy is a far less suitable option than c section unless surgery is impossible, or refused, might not get.

Still. Can always rely on you to follow me around the site trying to misinterpret my posts, eh?

As I've already had cause to point out, you are nothing if not predictable. :rolleyes:
 

petaljam

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No, I found the document really interesting too.

Sure, most hospitals on Europe would have chosen C-section way over the symphysiotomy in the 1950s - no reason to believe that symphysiotomy is less effective according to today's doctors.
Sorry I've no idea what you're saying. What do you mean by less effective?
We have a choice between:
- Baby born alive, woman crippled but able to have more babies?
Or:
- baby born alive, woman in good physical shape but advised not to have more than one or two more children?
 

Sailor

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You obviously haven't read the 114 page report that Fritzbox linked to. I was giving a little background information as to why the authors of the report had such difficulty finding enough examples of the practice outside of Ireland for comparative purposes. Something they mentioned but which someone who doesn't understand why symphysiotomy is a far less suitable option than c section unless surgery is impossible, or refused, might not get.

Still. Can always rely on you to follow me around the site trying to misinterpret my posts, eh?

As I've already had cause to point out, you are nothing if not predictable. :rolleyes:
Deliberately ignoring and excluding an important aspect of any issue makes for a very poor discussion. I take it you are not unaware of the dangers associated with C-Section 50 or 60 years ago?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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You'll generally find one or two predictables rising to the surface to defend the peasant mentality of the past. Don't question your betters, it was the times that were in it, the 1980s and 1990s were really just an annexe built onto the 1950s.

Always, always as well in an attempt to deflect around the way Irish society was unchallenging to the romping social reactionaries of a nation ostensibly in Europe but which was in many ways a developing nation more like a Central American statelet or a Balkan emergent state.

The professional mourners for Irebania.
 

petaljam

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Deliberately ignoring and excluding an important aspect of any issue makes for a very poor discussion. I take it you are not unaware of the dangers associated with C-Section 50 or 60 years ago?
I'm over 50. Are you suggesting that my mother could not safely have had a c section in an Irish hospital?
If that's so, why had symphysiotomies become so rare by then in maternities everywhere except in Ireland?

But the other problem, which as I suggested above has long been made almost irrelevant in the minds of the O'Taliban by the existence of the 8th amendment, is that of consent. Symphysiotomies may have some indications, but performing one without the woman's consent, and in many cases apparently without even informing her, is never acceptable. That, AFAIAA, was unique to Ireland among western countries.
 

Fritzbox

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Wikipedia perhaps :

Wikipedia perhaps :
I'm not sure why you are quoting that wiki article, symphysiotomies were performed in Europe long before anyone could care less what type of medical treatment was available in Africa.

Today, symphysiotomies seemed to be considered just as safe as C- Sections according to the profession.
 

Allegro

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You'll generally find one or two predictables rising to the surface to defend the peasant mentality of the past. Don't question your betters, it was the times that were in it, the 1980s and 1990s were really just an annexe built onto the 1950s.

Always, always as well in an attempt to deflect around the way Irish society was unchallenging to the romping social reactionaries of a nation ostensibly in Europe but which was in many ways a developing nation more like a Central American statelet or a Balkan emergent state.

The professional mourners for Irebania.
Can you stop spamming the thread with your inane sh1te?
 

Sailor

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I'm over 50. Are you suggesting that my mother could not safely have had a c section in an Irish hospital?
If that is so, why had symphysiotomies become so rare by then in maternity hospitals everywhere except Ireland?
RCPI Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Statement on Symphysiotomy


Why was symphysiotomy used?

The procedure was introduced in the 18th century for selected cases of obstructed labour and proved effective in allowing vaginal births while reducing maternal and infant death and morbidity rates that related to prolonged labour.

Because symphysiotomy permanently enlarged the pelvis the procedure also offered the prospect of safer vaginal delivery in future pregnancies at a time when large family size was usual.

At that time, symphysiotomy was a simpler and safer practice than caesarean section (C/S), a technique that gradually replaced it during the 20th century when difficulties with the C/S procedure itself were overcome. Caesarean birth, until the operation was refined, was itself a cause of maternal death, mainly due to blood loss and infection.”
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Can you stop spamming the thread with your inane sh1te?
Soon as you can effectively demonstrate there is something wrong with my opinion, then 'no'. The psychology around deference is very relevant to the history of health and social policy in the state.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I'm not sure why you are quoting that wiki article, symphysiotomies were performed in Europe long before anyone could care less what type of medical treatment was available in Africa.

Today, symphysiotomies seemed to be considered just as safe as C- Sections according to the profession.
Medically necessary cases or cases prompted by religious conviction of the medic concerned?
 

Fritzbox

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Sorry I've no idea what you're saying. What do you mean by less effective?
We have a choice between:
- Baby born alive, woman crippled but able to have more babies?
Or:
- baby born alive, woman in good physical shape but advised not to have more than one or two more children?
Which is which? I don't think the woman would ever be crippled after either of these operations - what "crippling"?
 

Fritzbox

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Medically necessary cases or cases prompted by religious conviction of the medic concerned?
Do you think the patient doesn't have any religious convictions either?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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I'm not sure why you are quoting that wiki article, symphysiotomies were performed in Europe long before anyone could care less what type of medical treatment was available in Africa.

Today, symphysiotomies seemed to be considered just as safe as C- Sections according to the profession.
We had a gynaecologist of 40 years practice state that he had never encountered a pregnancy which was a danger to the life of the pregnant woman in his entire career.

So either he was incredibly fortunate as a gynaecologist to have never encountered a hydroencephalic or ectopic pregnancy or it could have something to do with his personal notions.

Otherwise we have to conclude that one of the most senior gynaecologists in the state is seriously under-read on issues relevant to his profession. And requires further training.

We still have that sort of crap emerging from medicoes in Ireland as late as 2018. And the profession has form in that regard in Ireland. Fortunately no longer widespread.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Going back to the subject of the thread perhaps this Drogheda hospital could celebrate its history by re-naming it after some of their most infamous sons.

Not really fair to the good doctors and nurses of the hospital but neither is it right to continue with some reference to a shrine in France.

Unless the good people of Lourdes are prepared to stump up to fund a naming opportunity.
 

petaljam

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I'm not sure why you are quoting that wiki article, symphysiotomies were performed in Europe long before anyone could care less what type of medical treatment was available in Africa.
I quoted it because first you claimed that c sections might not have been available at a maternity hospital in 1950s Ireland, which is nonsense, and then that they could have been but that symphysiotomies might have been considered safer.


So since you didn't seem to understand from the article you linked to that this could not have been the case (they mention that they looked for comparable statistics in Catholic countries because by the mid 20th century (ie post 1945) the only advantage a symphysiotomy was felt to have over a c section was that the woman could continue having more babies.

In other countries the often permanently crippling consequences for the woman were felt by the 1940s and 50s to far outweigh the advantages of having a woman who could continue to bring more babies into the world.

But, you know, Ireland and forced pregnancies - well it's a long and not entirely closed chapter.

Today, symphysiotomies seemed to be considered just as safe as C- Sections according to the profession.
As I say, what do you mean by "just as safe"?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Given that we are obliged to take the multicultural approach and our fondness for public buildings named after religious places of devotion how about The Hospital of the Holy Kaaba, named after the object of veneration at the end of the Haj?

Or the Hospital of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
 

londonpride

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Why have so many gone off the subject.

Maybe calling in the Boyne Hospital , would be more realistic that having a name related to a superstitious fairy tale.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Firing up the old imagination now... maybe we could start naming public buildings after famous sporting moments. The Blessed Houghton Hospital in order of some famous contributions to sporting history by Ray Houghton.

Or the McBride General Hospital. You could have the '99' ward for unconscious cases or those in a coma. Named after Willie John who captained the '74 Lions and whose strategy for dealing with a notoriously dirty Springbok side was that on hearing the code-number '99' called out each Lions player was to immediately punch the nearest Springbok.

Series won 3-0.
 
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