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Breanainn

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The 27th Amendment to the Constitution in 2004 removed the automatic right to Irish citizenship for children born on the island of Ireland where both parents were foreign nationals, largely on the grounds of "birth tourism", that immigrants were allegedly travelling to Ireland in the advanced stages of pregnancy specifically to benefit such offering.

Yet in the intervening period since the referendum, there have been numerous high-profile cases where, because of the length of the immigration processes, and the various appeals within same, families faced with deportation have had children entirely born and raised in Ireland. The impact of the 27th remains a subject of debatable impact, but it might have greater efficacy on control and reform of the immigration process, if repeal of the amendment was accompanied by streamlining procedures to limit the number of appeals made by an applicant, the speeding up of the process not only expediting deportations, but enabling the progressive dismantling of direct provision.
 

McSlaggart

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The 27th Amendment to the Constitution in 2004 removed the automatic right to Irish citizenship for children born on the island of Ireland where both parents were foreign nationals, largely on the grounds of "birth tourism", that immigrants were allegedly travelling to Ireland in the advanced stages of pregnancy specifically to benefit such offering.

Yet in the intervening period since the referendum, there have been numerous high-profile cases where, because of the length of the immigration processes, and the various appeals within same, families faced with deportation have had children entirely born and raised in Ireland. The impact of the 27th remains a subject of debatable impact, but it might have greater efficacy on control and reform of the immigration process, if repeal of the amendment was accompanied by streamlining procedures to limit the number of appeals made by an applicant, the speeding up of the process not only expediting deportations, but enabling the progressive dismantling of direct provision.

They can simply apply for citizenship as you would in any other EU state.
 

talkingshop

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The 27th Amendment to the Constitution in 2004 removed the automatic right to Irish citizenship for children born on the island of Ireland where both parents were foreign nationals, largely on the grounds of "birth tourism", that immigrants were allegedly travelling to Ireland in the advanced stages of pregnancy specifically to benefit such offering.

Yet in the intervening period since the referendum, there have been numerous high-profile cases where, because of the length of the immigration processes, and the various appeals within same, families faced with deportation have had children entirely born and raised in Ireland. The impact of the 27th remains a subject of debatable impact, but it might have greater efficacy on control and reform of the immigration process, if repeal of the amendment was accompanied by streamlining procedures to limit the number of appeals made by an applicant, the speeding up of the process not only expediting deportations, but enabling the progressive dismantling of direct provision.
I don’t see any need to remove it as it only stops an automatic right to citizenship. We can still legislate to grant citizenship in appropriate cases.
 

raetsel

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I don’t see any need to remove it as it only stops an automatic right to citizenship. We can still legislate to grant citizenship in appropriate cases.
How much does it cost to apply, though?
In the UK, the last I heard was that it was around a thousand pounds.
Considering that in various parts of the UK, (NI) included, over 50% of the population have less than £100 in savings. In effect that means that many people who came to the UK as children and worked here all their lives could never afford the luxury. The recent Windrush scandal was a consequence of that for many.
Citizenship shouldn't be a privilege only for the reasonably well off.
 

Dame_Enda

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We should keep the 27th. Quite apart from the abuse of the system that medical professionals reported at the time, with over 20% of births in some hospitals being non-Irish mothers (despite non nationals being closer to 10% back then), and the Chen Case 2003, where the ECJ ruled that the parent of an EU citizen gets certain rights associated with EU citizenship like free movement in all member states - there is also the strong case that whatever the citizenship law is, it is more flexible to decide it in the Oireachtas rather than in the Constitution. The 27th Amendment allows the Oireachtas to legislate for citizenship.

In one year in the early 2000s we had 11,000 people claiming asylum. It fell precipitously after the amendment, and while it has risen recently, this is likely Brexit related.
 

stopdoingstuff

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No. Under no circumstances. Europe and the UK are turning into third world sh1tholes. Ireland must not go the same way.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I sense there may be a market-based solution. Let the free market do its thing and solve problems for us. What I mean by that is that i envisage a sort of internal market where EU nations can trade immigrants and refugees. The more useful you are economically to the host nation the more likely they will want to hold on to you. You could be their ace in the hole. 100 Pull Up A Chair Points.

If however you are a nineteen year old child who has deserted from some gang or warlord in sh1t-strewn Goatskyavotzsplut and are desperate to make it to anywhere with a social security net and to be warm and snug in a system, any system, then you might only be worth a hundredth of Useful Boris who has a work ethic.

You could have an index, package up some derivatives, this time next year we'll all be millionaires. Kushti.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Mom & Pop sales. Over the counter COHB (Coming Over Here Bonds) sold to the average small investor as well as the big boys. Mrs Murphy of Coolock could be exposed to conflict in the Balkans and an offset in 10,000 COHB on the spot R & I Market (Refugees and Immigrants) would certainly bring stability to her portfolio.
 

Granballoon

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I see lots of twitter twerps calling the 27th Amendment 'racist', and even some extremist groups like MASI suggesting it be repealed without a vote.

Of course what they don't tell you is that the 27th Amendment actually brings us in line with the laws of 165 out of 195 countries around the world. The remaining 30 or so are countries like El Salvador, Costa Rica etc. Nobody is falling over themselves to be from there.


The 27th Amendment to the Constitution in 2004 removed the automatic right to Irish citizenship for children born on the island of Ireland where both parents were foreign nationals, largely on the grounds of "birth tourism", that immigrants were allegedly travelling to Ireland in the advanced stages of pregnancy specifically to benefit such offering.

Yet in the intervening period since the referendum, there have been numerous high-profile cases where, because of the length of the immigration processes, and the various appeals within same, families faced with deportation have had children entirely born and raised in Ireland.
This is intentional manipulation of the public, the system, and their children. The people who perpetrate this do some intentionally knowing their child might be ripped from the only life they know. I had this done to me but not under the same circumstances, and it is paralyzing and affects one for years. It's sick to be honest, and is exploitation of a child. And it has worked beautifully for them so far, look at the case of Eric Xue. Undoubtedly the victim, but not of the state, of his mother. And of course they got him and his wonderful and honest mother permission to stay when they kicked up a fuss in the media. The poor lad is the very definition of an 'anchor baby'. People who attempt this should be charged with exploitation of a child.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Of course. It is the most logical answer I can think of apart from the other possibilities. And we know mr jesus hates China coz they are all commies etc and so forth.

A man in the sky with all-seeing limitless powers is so annoyed that he couldn't interfere in our extremely robust voting systems that he had to wait and punish us with a virus that started well east of Wicklow in the world and yet again failed to leave an explanatory note.

Thank Nebbutsheh the Crocodile God of the Slaney you were here to intuit this answer for us. It all makes perfect sense now.
 

Granballoon

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Of course. It is the most logical answer I can think of apart from the other possibilities. And we know mr jesus hates China coz they are all commies etc and so forth.

A man in the sky with all-seeing limitless powers is so annoyed that he couldn't interfere in our extremely robust voting systems that he had to wait and punish us with a virus that started well east of Wicklow in the world and yet again failed to leave an explanatory note.

Thank Nebbutsheh the Crocodile God of the Slaney you were here to intuit this answer for us. It all makes perfect sense now.
Ireland really does have a mental health crisis it's not addressing...

'Top Poster of Month' lmfao that's just the cherry on top.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Just wait until I add my gold bar for being Champion of the 2020/2021 Predictions League. Every time I arrive on a thread it will look like the arrival of the 7th Legion.

It'll be massive so it will.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Might specify it for my own gravestone, if I wasn't being cremated. Might get one anyway and plonk it down in some nice random forest glade somewhere. Sure don't you only live once?

'Top Poster Politics.ie September 2020.

A Sad Man

in

Many Ways.'


Also I've realised where Cattlepest's literary format and style pf posting comes from. It is the same style and frequent capitalisation as statements on gravestones.
 

Dame_Enda

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There is a kind of fetishism on the Left about putting everything into the Constitution. The 27th amendment merely said it was the Oireachtas' job to decide on citizenship law, and that unless it said otherwise, citizenship would not be automatically granted to those born on this island. Those who already were entitled to citizenship under the old system retained it. Putting an automatic right to citizenship into the Constitution denies legislators and the executive the flexibility they need to cater for a changing economy with changing variables like labour shortages or labour abundance, protecting job opportunities for those already here during a global recession, preventing international terrorists and criminal gangs from using anchor babies to prevent their deportation etc.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
We've just spent some harrowing years removing a malevolent right wing militant catholic amendment from the constitution, which we all know was placed by extremist social reactionaries in the Constitution in 1983 in order to prevent legislators addressing any related issues.

None involved were 'left wing' in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
 

Granballoon

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There is a kind of fetishism on the Left about putting everything into the Constitution. The 27th amendment merely said it was the Oireachtas' job to decide on citizenship law, and that unless it said otherwise, citizenship would not be automatically granted to those born on this island. Those who already were entitled to citizenship under the old system retained it. Putting an automatic right to citizenship into the Constitution denies legislators and the executive the flexibility they need to cater for a changing economy with changing variables like labour shortages or labour abundance, protecting job opportunities for those already here during a global recession, preventing international terrorists and criminal gangs from using anchor babies to prevent their deportation etc.
Agree with most everything you said, not that our government actually executes on removing criminals who have no status here, or protects its natives against hard times, which they should be doing.

Aside from everything you've said, this issue is actually far simpler. What the extremists that want the 27th repealed won't tell you is the 27th put our laws in line with about 165 out of 195 countries around the world, the remaining being mostly developing countries. It was also our fourth most decisive referendum decision ever I believe at around 77%, more so than even marriage equality and repealing the 8th (not that I'm not happy about that, frankly both of those should have been higher IMO.)

But can we stop with this 'the left' and 'the right' business that's been imported from the states please... we have a multi-party government system setup and this fact should prevent this kind of black and white talk that gets people nowhere...
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
It is an entirely false debate in what was until recently fair uniquely centre right to extreme right at times down the decades. Ireland has never had a socialist government, does not have an industrial heartland where the exploited can be handed pamphlets based on Marx and the struggle of the proletariat. Very few Irish politicians could explain the difference between a Republic and any other model of government you could care to name never mind debate right and left.

It is always a copy of something heard or seen elsewhere and isn't a real debate in Ireland outside of universities. Used to be very annoying seeing people call for a 'left-right debate' in a country in which the urban versus rural divide is harder to manage than any issue of social class.
 

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