Repeal the 8th (Second Thread)


MsDaisyC

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Today the Health Committee rejected an amendment that would oblige doctors to intervene
if a baby is born alive after an attempted abortion.

This happens. It is a reality.

The Proborts don't care - leave him/her to die.....:rolleyes2:
Please provide statistics for Irish cases.:cautious:
 

MsDaisyC

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The figures are used to calculate % - they are not extrapolated. They are official statistics used to come up with abortion rates that are accepted as international comparators. Attempts by pro-choicers to imply dishonesty in their use was bottom of the barrel stuff.
And yet here's a big ole post extrapolating Repeal the 8th (Second Thread) - Page 378 ! Live Births:Abortions =/= percentage.

You are happy to make sweeping statements brandishing prolifers as liars - I think you should take that back in line with the forum rules.
They are liars and this can be backed up by facts. Breast cancer, child abuse, depression, Nurse Noel, etc etc
 

petaljam

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The figures are used to calculate % - they are not extrapolated. They are official statistics used to come up with abortion rates that are accepted as international comparators.
Ireland's official rate was 26 for 2016 IIRC. Do you think that was the actual rate?

Attempts by pro-choicers to imply dishonesty in their use was bottom of the barrel stuff.
It is dishonest to try to directly compare actual statistics to estimated rates as though they were the same thing.

You are happy to make sweeping statements brandishing prolifers as liars - I think you should take that back in line with the forum rules.
Sorry you haven't shown what lie was told by prochoicers. If you can point out the specific lie it would be helpful.
 

gooner

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petaljam

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Actually yes it is, that is Ireland's official abortion rate. It's the only figure the Irish health service is able to provide.

That doesn't mean anyone thinks, or claims, that it's the real number of abortions that Irish women had that year.

Which is my point. We don't have an actual number for Irish women because the vast majority of abortions which took place were not carried out under Irish law. Some of those were reported to the Irish authorities by other countries, but there is no way of knowing how many they missed, and how many others took place illegally.
 

gooner

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It's how they're used is crux of the matter.

Prochoice say that X amount of Irish abortions take place in the UK. That can be mostly verified by info provided by the clinics carrying out the abortions.

So called "prolife" say X amount of abortions take place in the UK and X amount of live births take place in the UK but then extrapolate those figures to percentages of live births to abortions and claim that X percent of pregnancies end in abortion when it's not remotely true.

But we all know so called "prolife" are prolific liars when it comes to issues of women's health.
The live births for Ireland are from the CSO. Fact is the no. of abortions for women travelling to Britain and The Netherlands are from official reports.

As the HSE link showed, one outlet has 1,217 women buying the abortion pill from the Republic and the North. A second has 878 from the Republic. That is 2,095 which will obviously be below 2,000 when taking away the North from the first outlet, and this correlates with what Dr. Aiken at the Committee said previously that 5 a day was about accurate for abortion pills taken. These also get seized we must be remember too. I agree they're estimates but they're a fair and as much accurate assessment of it as can be based on research and studies in relation to Ireland on it. They're not numbers plucked out of thin air as Boylan and Mary Favier did on the Late Late which at one stage referenced 4,000 for effect.
 

MsDaisyC

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The live births for Ireland are from the CSO. Fact is the no. of abortions for women travelling to Britain and The Netherlands are from official reports.

As the HSE link showed, one outlet has 1,217 women buying the abortion pill from the Republic and the North. A second has 878 from the Republic. That is 2,095 which will obviously be below 2,000 when taking away the North from the first outlet, and this correlates with what Dr. Aiken at the Committee said previously that 5 a day was about accurate for abortion pills taken. These also get seized we must be remember too. I agree they're estimates but they're a fair and as much accurate assessment of it as can be based on research and studies in relation to Ireland on it. They're not numbers plucked out of thin air as Boylan and Mary Favier did on the Late Late which at one stage referenced 4,000 for effect.
Facts about live births and facts about Irish abortions abroad cannot be extrapolated to give X percentage of abortions because the figures do not include all pregnancies. It's really not all that difficult to grasp, unless it's something you're deliberately unwilling to, in order to propagate a dishonest narrative.
 

gooner

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And yet here's a big ole post extrapolating Repeal the 8th (Second Thread) - Page 378 ! Live Births:Abortions =/= percentage.
Those are all official statistics and government reports. You can have all the links if you want but there are many of them.

BTW did you not read the article from Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight site I posted?

Here is WHO's website.

Abortions per 1000 live births - European Health Information Gateway

Check the fourth column from French Statistics. It's abortions per 100 live births.

Abortions - Abortion, contraception - France - Data - Ined - Institut national d’études démographiques

Here is the Office for National Statistics in the UK.

figures are derived from combining numbers of maternities and abortions using information recorded at birth registration and abortion notification; there is a legal requirement to record these data making them the best and most complete data sources available
conception statistics do not include conceptions resulting in miscarriages or illegal abortions; NHS Choices estimate that one in six confirmed pregnancies will end in miscarriage
Conceptions in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

You can download the statistics from that report here(Excel) if you wish and you will see that the 1 in 5 poster referenced during the campaign was correct.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/datasets/conceptionstatisticsenglandandwalesreferencetables/2016/conceptionstatisticstables2016.xls
 
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petaljam

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Did you not read the article from Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight site I posted?

Here is WHO's website.

Abortions per 1000 live births - European Health Information Gateway

Check the fourth column from French Statistics. It's abortions per 100 live births.
So it doesn't include miscarriages or deaths in utero - as I said.

The funny thing is that you wreck your own arguments all by yourself :
there is a legal requirement to record these data making them the best and most complete data
Why does this matter for the UK but you expect people to take you seriously with your bits and pieces of information gathered here and there from various sources? :roll:
 

gooner

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I wasn't aware that GPs provided abortions anywhere.
Only one to my knowledge is Australia.

In South Australia, there were 241 abortions out of 4,439 through GPs in 2015. That was only 5.4% of all abortions. (page 55)

https://www.sahealth.sa.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/66323264-dc4f-4667-b118-acabd078685a/Pregnancy+Outcome+in+SA+2015.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-66323264-dc4f-4667-b118-acabd078685a-m13MJ0U

In Western Australia, 2.6% went through GPs in 2015. (page 30)

https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/Files/Corporate/general%20documents/Data%20collection/PDF/Induced-Abortion-Report-2013-15.pdf
 

PBP voter

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I wasn't aware that GPs provided abortions anywhere.
I reckon at least 70% of our medical professionals will want nothing to do with abortion.

Figures compiled by the Italian government show the percentage of gynaecologists objecting has jumped from 58.7% in 2005 to 70.9% in 2016.
 

gooner

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So it doesn't include miscarriages or deaths in utero - as I said.



The funny thing is that you wreck your own arguments all by yourself :


Why does this matter for the UK but you expect people to take you seriously with your bits and pieces of information gathered here and there from various sources? :roll:
You are something else.

The no. of Irish women travelling is directly from the British government's own report.

The no. of Irish women travelling to the Netherlands is from their own Ministry for Health report which you can see here for Ireland (2011-2016 on page 29).

https://www.igj.nl/binaries/igj/documenten/rapporten/2018/01/16/jaarrapportage-2016-van-de-wet-afbreking-zwangerschap/Jaarrapportage+Wafz+2016+-+definitief+16-1-2017.pdf

You're welcome.
 

petaljam

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The no. of Irish women travelling is directly from the British government's own report.

The no. of Irish women travelling to the Netherlands is from their own Ministry for Health report which you can see here for Ireland (2011-2016 on page 29).

https://www.igj.nl/binaries/igj/documenten/rapporten/2018/01/16/jaarrapportage-2016-van-de-wet-afbreking-zwangerschap/Jaarrapportage+Wafz+2016+-+definitief+16-1-2017.pdf

You're welcome.
That's not in doubt, the point is that you don't know - because nobody knows - how many more abortions Irish women have had : how many went to a different country for their abortion because they had friends or family there, how many ordered abortion pills, now many indeed may have used some of the older, more traumatic methods.

Nobody knows. But we know that the number provided by the Uk is not the total number.
 

gooner

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The funny thing about this is that the pro-abortion posters on here regularly said once upon a time Netherlands kept no records of Irish women travelling until I corrected them on it.

The cherry picking of data was alive and well then when I was reading this forum long before I joined.
 

petaljam

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The funny thing about this is that the pro-abortion posters on here regularly said once about time Netherlands kept no records of Irish women travelling until I corrected them on it.
Not something I've ever said, so I don't know why you think it's relevant. Although FWIW they didn't provide records for some years, not sure how many, so whoever said that may simply have been a little out of date.

The cherry picking of data was alive and well then when I was reading this forum long before I joined.
 
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