Repeal the 8th (Second Thread)


gooner

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My lord you’re quite the library. Must help you when you meet Colm O’Gorman or write to newspapers.
I don't know what you mean by any of this.

Personally at this stage I couldn’t give one rattling damn what the abortion rate is anywhere. You do realize you’re merely demonstrating how common and normal it is. Which will be the month after the next in Ireland.
What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.
 

petaljam

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I don't know what you mean by any of this.
I assume Emily is referring to your post, apparently edited since, where you mentioned that you have yourself provided figures to various high profile prochoice personalities.

What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.
It's not relevant unless the reasons why GP services don't provide abortions in other countries is relevant to Ireland.
For instance in the UK, back in the 60s, the priority was to end the high number of illegal abortions, carried out in some cases by doctors. So the decision made was to remove GPs and other non specialists from the equation altogether and have legal abortion provision only in specific centres.

The existence of the U.K. as an Irish "solution" since then means that there are unlikely to be large numbers of "professional" providers of illegal abortions in Ireland, so that factor is unimportant. Ensuring there is no equivalent of the US situation where abortion providers are easily identified and regularly targeted by threats or actual violence, however, probably needs to be a factor in Ireland.
 

gooner

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I assume Emily is referring to your post, apparently edited since, where you mentioned that you have yourself provided figures to various high profile prochoice personalities.
OK. It's twitter and to be fair to him he engaged with many pro-lifers on there.


It's not relevant unless the reasons why GP services don't provide abortions in other countries is relevant to Ireland.
That's fair enough. The only thing I know is it is done like this in recent years.

The availability of Mifepristone since 2012 for abortions at gestations less than 49 days
(from 2014 for gestations less than 63 days) enabled induced abortion to be managed
from a general practice setting. By 2015, general practice accounted for 2.6 per cent of
induced abortions (Figure 4).
https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/Files/Corporate/general%20documents/Data%20collection/PDF/Induced-Abortion-Report-2013-15.pdf

Page 4 on their Termination of Pregnancy Information deals with whether they are comfortable with providing abortion. It says then to refer to another GP or health centre if that is the case. Judging by the 2.6% I would guess that is what's happening quite a bit.

https://www.health.wa.gov.au/publications/documents/Termination_of_Pregnancy_Info_for_Medical_Practitioners_Dec_07.pdf
 

petaljam

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OK. It's twitter and to be fair to him he engaged with many pro-lifers on there.

That's fair enough. The only thing I know is it is done like this in recent years.

https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/~/media/Files/Corporate/general%20documents/Data%20collection/PDF/Induced-Abortion-Report-2013-15.pdf

Page 4 on their Termination of Pregnancy Information deals with whether they are comfortable with providing abortion. It says then to refer to another GP or health centre if that is the case. Judging by the 2.6% I would guess that is what's happening quite a bit.

https://www.health.wa.gov.au/publications/documents/Termination_of_Pregnancy_Info_for_Medical_Practitioners_Dec_07.pdf
Sorry still no idea what your point is. Most abortion services in the rest of the developed world were set up before the abortion pill became widespread, so naturally the laws didn't take it into account. That they haven't updated their laws because they have a system that they are happy enough with is one thing, but you need to explain why Australia, or indeed anywhere else, should serve as a model for Ireland? Is this a random choice or are just cherrypicking for data that seems to back up your claim?
 

butterbox

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Sorry still no idea what your point is. Most abortion services in the rest of the developed world were set up before the abortion pill became widespread, so naturally the laws didn't take it into account. That they haven't updated their laws because they have a system that they are happy enough with is one thing, but you need to explain why Australia, or indeed anywhere else, should serve as a model for Ireland? Is this a random choice or are just cherrypicking for data that seems to back up your claim?
Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
 

Buchaill Dana

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Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
Correct.
 

petaljam

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Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
Yes. There will probably be some need for early scans if there is any possibility of an ectopic pregnancy, for which a medical abortion would not be indicated - but then that would be the case if an ectopic pregnancy was suspected anyway.

Other than that I can't see why hospital service would need to be involved in a medical termination.

There are some cases where surgical termination is required even pre 12 weeks though I don't know how often: whenever the medical termination is not advisable for a woman - something similar to the proportion of women for whom the combined oral contraceptive pill is contra-indicated I imagine. Those would need to be carried out surgically, and then there is also the 10-12 week group, because the failure rate increases significantly after 9 or 10 weeks, which is why the NHS generally doesn't fund medical abortions after that date any way. I think in the US they may do it for longer, but possibly not up to 12 weeks all the same.
 

Emily Davison

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I don't know what you mean by any of this.



What are you on about? That had nothing to do with abortion rates.

It was a response to another poster and the point that GPs didn't provide abortions elsewhere. As was said, it is delivered through a GP system in very small numbers in Australia and discussing this in relation to Ireland is a perfectly valid discussion at the moment, no matter what side of the fence your on.

Or did you miss the news about the ICGP poll or the upcoming EGM.
I just meant you weren't a fan of Richie Sadlier in the IT.

Richie Sadlier: Men are missing from the abortion debate

As regards, GP's. Abortion service, we are literally talking giving out prescriptions. That's what the 'service' will be. For the vast vast majority of cases. No doubt Irish women go to their doctors currently on advice on crisis pregnancies so instead of referring the women to the uk or to Woman on Web to buy pills, the GP will prescribe an abortion pill. That will in general be the sum total of their involvement in abortions.
 

gooner

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I just meant you weren't a fan of Richie Sadlier in the IT.

Richie Sadlier: Men are missing from the abortion debate
Well of course when he spreads a complete falsehood in that article I previously mentioned with nothing to back up what he's saying. And this carries influence.

The real definition of fake news.

I’m voting Yes because I accept the reality that Ireland has an abortion rate comparable with countries where abortion is legal.
His football punditry is boring too which doesn't help.
 

Emily Davison

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Trying to understand the impact here. Is it correct that most abortions will be up to 12 weeks and performed by taking pills, thus not having any impact on the health service other than financing the pill. Only hospital services will be used for when the pills don't work or for later abortions. Is this correct?
This debate with Gooner is hot air, much the same with the 180 proposed amendments that the gang of 9 are seeking to impose. Literally not much changes in January. Women currently getting abortion pills online will get them from their chemist instead. And difficult cases, the FFA/Health/Disability cases will now be performed in Ireland. So that Irish doctors don't have to reject woman any longer and don't have to give them the phone numbers of English clinics. The POLDP/Life one's are performed already. One assumes it is to those hospitals that all late terms will go, meaning the main maternity hospitals.

Positives are

- women won't have to travel
- women won't be carrying their dead babies back in suitcases of the back of cars
- women won't be getting their babies ashes back in a DHL package
- women won't have to feel like their country does not support them
 

Emily Davison

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Well of course when he spreads a complete falsehood like this with nothing to back up what he's saying.



His football punditry is boring too which doesn't help.
I'm pretty sure Ireland's abortion rate must be comparable to similar countries. Once we get real figures instead of the current conjectured ones.

Anyway at least Sadlier did the right thing and voted for women to have control of their bodies, and we women are no longer equal to the foetus we are carrying.
 

petaljam

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Well of course when he spreads a complete falsehood in that article I previously mentioned with nothing to back up what he's saying.
LOL. This from the poster who still thinks if he repeats his own nonsense often enough it might start
to look more plausible.

And this carries influence.

The real definition of fake news.
Isn't it an opinion piece? In the absence of properly verified figures (not guesswork) his opinion is
as good as yours.

His football punditry is boring too which doesn't help.
Great put down. I'd say your own is far better. It's probably just your prolife views that have stopped your
football commenting career in its tracks :roll:
 

Emily Davison

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Great put down. I'd say your own is far better. It's probably just your prolife views that have stopped your
football commenting career in its tracks :roll:
My husband was once in the UK wanting to watch a Man U match, he ended up in a Gooner's pub outside their grounds as he couldn't get a ticket in, he didn't make a peep when Man U beat Arsenal though, as his life would literally be in danger. I always thought it was spelt Gunner, as that's the way my husband pronounced it, but apparently it's also Gooner.
 

gooner

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I'm pretty sure Ireland's abortion rate must be comparable to similar countries. Once we get real figures instead of the current conjectured ones.
Anyway at least Sadlier did the right thing and voted for women to have control of their bodies, and we women are no longer equal to the foetus we are carrying.
That's it. Pitch every pregnancy as mother against child. Women weren't equal to their unborn babies, terminations were clearly carried out when their life was at threat.

As for Sadlier, he mentions this.

I want my nieces and nephews to have equal rights over their own bodies.
To Richie's surprise, I also have nieces and nephews that stay in my house each night and over the weekends. They have equal rights and the nieces are raised by my sisters in the same way my mother raised them, they don't need the choice to end the lives of their unborn babies to get this bizarre notion of feeling equal to us men. But how dare they do that though.

Here's another comment.

You’d think there isn’t a man in the country that would be willing to have unsafe sex or that has ever used a method of contraception that has failed. And when news of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy comes along, they only ever respond with total support and unwavering commitment. They’re even offering to take sole custody of the babies when they’re born such is their commitment to the rights to life of every foetus. If that’s your view of Irish men, then judge women all you like, but if you can acknowledge it’s far from the truth then you can’t vote No. Well you could, but you’d have to concede it’s blatant hypocrisy.
I never heard a pro-lifer say all men are supportive of women who get pregnant so he's making this up as he's goes along. And if he's on about men and failed contraception, do not think this doesn't also apply to women with repeat abortion in the bracket of 30-40% around Europe.

All this goes the other way too. What if a man is supportive and wants to father the child. Where are his rights? By voting Yes for this choice, you and Richie Sadlier as strangers had more say in that pregnancy than the father in question. Pro-abortion choice isn't an absentee viewpoint or somehow minding your own business as you and Richie Sadlier think, it has direct consequences in what you're advocating, so own it. The audacity of people to think it's a distant opinion from the intricacies of it all is one of the most disingenuous things I constantly hear throughout this debate.

Not to mention if it's a choice on the woman wanting to be a mother or not, what if on the other hand she carries to term and the man doesn't want to be the father. Why should he be forced(as pro-abortion supporters say) to be a father and compelled by law to support the woman financially? I'm against that by the way but with the logic on this why shouldn't he get a choice too if you're consistent. Where's the equality for men in having the same choice as women? Which all shows it's not about equality at all.
 

Emily Davison

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That's it. Pitch every pregnancy as mother against child. Women weren't equal to their unborn babies, terminations were clearly carried out when their life was at threat.

As for Sadlier, he mentions this.



To Richie's surprise, I also have nieces and nephews that stay in my house each night and over the weekends. They have equal rights and the nieces are raised by my sisters in the same way my mother raised them, they don't need the choice to end the lives of their unborn babies to get this bizarre notion of feeling equal to us men.

Here's another comment.



I never heard a pro-lifer say all men are supportive of women who get pregnant so he's making this up as he's goes along. And if he's on about men and failed contraception, do not think this doesn't also apply to women with repeat abortion in the bracket of 30-40% around Europe.

All this goes the other way too. What if a man is supportive and wants to father the child. Where are his rights? By voting Yes for this choice, you and Richie Sadlier as strangers had more say in that pregnancy than the father in question. Pro-abortion choice isn't an absentee viewpoint or somehow minding your own business as you and Richie Sadlier think, it has direct consequences in what you're advocating, so own it.

Not to mention if it's a choice on the woman wanting to be a mother or not, what if on the other hand she carries to term and the man doesn't want to be the father. Why should he be forced(as pro-abortion supporters say) to be a father and compelled by law to support the woman financially? I'm against that by the way but with the logic on this why shouldn't he get a choice too if you're consistent. Where's the equality for men in having the same choice as women?
It's got zero to do with equality with men, that's a bizzare take on what I said.

I'm not getting into the stupid debate about fathers wanting to support financially their children or not. It's clear they must, whether they want to or not, and vice versa. The fact you're even bringing it up is pathetic.
 

gooner

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My husband was once in the UK wanting to watch a Man U match, he ended up in a Gooner's pub outside their grounds as he couldn't get a ticket in, he didn't make a peep when Man U beat Arsenal though, as his life would literally be in danger. I always thought it was spelt Gunner, as that's the way my husband pronounced it, but apparently it's also Gooner.
Thanks for that football lesson about the meaning of Gooner. I never knew that. LOL.
 

gooner

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LOL. This from the poster who still thinks if he repeats his own nonsense often enough it might start
to look more plausible.
Keep posting tosh, expertly twisting and moving the goalposts, factually incorrect stuff and I will continue to correct you and others. That it annoys you is irrelevant.

You can carry on as much as you like saying it's nonsense, it doesn't make it anymore right on your part.

Isn't it an opinion piece? In the absence of properly verified figures (not guesswork) his opinion is
as good as yours.
Oh FFS, he's writing in a national newspaper. I'm a nobody on a forum who does reference official reports and statistics which is the complete opposite of you and him.

Great put down. I'd say your own is far better. It's probably just your prolife views that have stopped your
football commenting career in its tracks :roll:
Definitely. I'd finally make the RTE Licence worth paying for.:petunia:
 

gooner

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The thing is out of all the countries I mentioned in Europe/North America and Oceania, they can't find one stat on Live Births and abortions that are wrong because a link can be provided for everyone.

The same applies with Ireland and women that travel to Britain and the Netherlands(official government reports and the HSE website). Or the fact the Committee mentioned 5 pills a day last year when Dr. Aiken provided evidence and the data since from two online providers correspond with it.

That's how it goes around here but entirely to be expected.
 

petaljam

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Keep posting tosh, twisting and moving the goalposts, and factually incorrect stuff and I will continue to correct you and others. That it annoys you is irrelevant.
Why would you think it annoys me? It amuses me greatly to see the last few valiant footsoldiers slogging on through the jungle long after their side have lost the war.

You're trying to rerun the campaign you lost in May - and you haven't even realized that when your strategy fails, you need to rethink it. Why on earth would I be annoyed by it?

You can carry on as much as you like saying it's nonsense, it doesn't make it anymore right on your part.
No indeed. That's what I said about Sadlier's opinion piece too.
And as they say, you're entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.
But you keep insisting that your opinion is fact.

Oh FFS, he's writing in a national newspaper. I'm a nobody on a forum who does reference official reports and statistics which is the complete opposite of you and him.
That's the point. Randomers on the internet criticising someone as boring... It's a bit sad really.

Definitely. I'd finally make the RTE Licence worth paying for.:petunia:
I can hardly wait! :lol:
 

gooner

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