Republican Freedom - Philip Pettit in the Irish Times



mossyman

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GDPR

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I'm afraid that as a secular Republican I fail to find the 1916 Proclamation inspiring.
Patrick Pearse was a pious member of the Franciscan Third Order, the son of an immensely talented father who converted from Unitarianism to Catholicism and sacrificed an extremely promising career in England to put his talents to work rebuilding Churches in Ireland and a Dublin woman full of the unaffected kindness and wisdom of the Southern Irish at their best. Growing up in the shadow of the Irish Holocaust/An Gorta Mor who's horrors rang through to the uttermost depths of highly imaginative and rawly feeling soul in a city with worse slums than Calcutta and the biggest red light district in Europe he saw his Crucified Lord in wretched slum dwellers till what he saw became to much for him and he did what be believed necessary....And even than out of compassion he called short the Rebellion and walked to his death. What could your type of "secular Republican" find inspiring about anything a man such he touched?
 

GDPR

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He's a secular Republican too.
He believed in Religious toleration, I believe in Religious toleration (up to a point) but he was not secular, could some one who wrote the below which seems to ring out of the Christian Middle Ages be honestly described as secular?

I could have borne stripes on my body rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision;
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people’s name to the masters of my people.
I say to my people that they are holy, that they are august, despite their chains,
That they are greater than those that hold them, and stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God that loves the peoples
For whom He died naked, suffering shame.

He wasnt a Republican either- he and Count Joseph Mary Plunkett desired to put the Legitimate heir of the Throne of Scotland on an Irish Throne. He lived and died within a world you cant or refuse to comprehend and that Statsman mocks. Yet I am sure that St Francis, St Clare and Brother Giles welcomed his soul into Paradise.
 

Mercurial

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He believed in Religious toleration, I believe in Religious toleration (up to a point) but he was not secular, could some one who wrote the below which seems to ring out of the Christian Middle Ages be honestly described as secular?

I could have borne stripes on my body rather than this shame of my people.
And now I speak, being full of vision;
I speak to my people, and I speak in my people’s name to the masters of my people.
I say to my people that they are holy, that they are august, despite their chains,
That they are greater than those that hold them, and stronger and purer,
That they have but need of courage, and to call on the name of their God,
God the unforgetting, the dear God that loves the peoples
For whom He died naked, suffering shame.

He wasnt a Republican either- he and Count Joseph Mary Plunkett desired to put the Legitimate heir of the Throne of Scotland on an Irish Throne. He lived and died within a world you cant or refuse to comprehend and that Statsman mocks. Yet I am sure that St Francis, St Clare and Brother Giles welcomed his soul into Paradise.
I was referring to Pettit.
 

statsman

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Patrick Pearse was a pious member of the Franciscan Third Order, the son of an immensely talented father who converted from Unitarianism to Catholicism and sacrificed an extremely promising career in England to put his talents to work rebuilding Churches in Ireland and a Dublin woman full of the unaffected kindness and wisdom of the Southern Irish at their best. Growing up in the shadow of the Irish Holocaust/An Gorta Mor who's horrors rang through to the uttermost depths of highly imaginative and rawly feeling soul in a city with worse slums than Calcutta and the biggest red light district in Europe he saw his Crucified Lord in wretched slum dwellers till what he saw became to much for him and he did what be believed necessary....And even than out of compassion he called short the Rebellion and walked to his death. What could your type of "secular Republican" find inspiring about anything a man such he touched?
He really was a bit of a gobsh1te, but a decent minor poet in his way.
 

12 bens

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I'm afraid that as a secular Republican I fail to find the 1916 Proclamation inspiring.
I note that you discribe yourself as a 'secular Republican' but not an atheist. As an atheist I do find the 1916 Proclamation inspiring. It is a document of its time and should be read as such. Of course, some recent versions are more inspiring but must also be read as of their time. POBLACHT NA H EIREANN The Provisional Government of the Irish Socialist Republic To the people of Ireland and the World | Socialist Worker | Ireland | Socialist Worker | Ireland

Indeed, there were few atheists in Ireland at the time as this fine little study reveals. (Although, ironically, Pearse's father was influenced by Charles Bradlaugh.) https://comeheretome.com/2012/10/18/athiests-and-agnostics-in-dublin-1911/

Indeed, Ireland's most famous Atheist of the time, James Joyce, was a Republican.
 

statsman

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I note that you discribe yourself as a 'secular Republican' but not an atheist. As an atheist I do find the 1916 Proclamation inspiring. It is a document of its time and should be read as such. Of course, some recent versions are more inspiring but must also be read as of their time. POBLACHT NA H EIREANN The Provisional Government of the Irish Socialist Republic To the people of Ireland and the World | Socialist Worker | Ireland | Socialist Worker | Ireland

Indeed, there were few atheists in Ireland at the time as this fine little study reveals. (Although, ironically, Pearse's father was influenced by Charles Bradlaugh.) https://comeheretome.com/2012/10/18/athiests-and-agnostics-in-dublin-1911/

Indeed, Ireland's most famous Atheist of the time, James Joyce, was a Republican.
I'm also an atheist. I suspect many of us are Republicans, but the 1916 Proclamation strikes me as anything but secular, marginally Republican, and deeply paternalistic.
 

12 bens

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I'm also an atheist. I suspect many of us are Republicans, but the 1916 Proclamation strikes me as anything but secular, marginally Republican, and deeply paternalistic.
My grandfather, an agnostic, thought the 1916 Proclamation was very radical for its day.

What do you think of one of our contemporary Proclamations? POBLACHT NA H EIREANN The Provisional Government of the Irish Socialist Republic To the people of Ireland and the World | Socialist Worker | Ireland | Socialist Worker | Ireland
 

GDPR

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I suspect I'd prefer the company there to that in the other place.
God will be All in All (1 Corinthian 15:28) in the Age to Come; so there will be no escape from Him which will be the torment of His enemies unto the Ages of Ages. You dont want to be in the company of His friends, well it will be far worse for you being His company and not being able to escape. It isnt to late statsman though. Every sacrifice you make for God He gives back to you so much more.
 

statsman

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God will be All in All (1 Corinthian 15:28) in the Age to Come; so there will be no escape from Him which will be the torment of His enemies unto the Ages of Ages. You dont want to be in the company of His friends, well it will be far worse for you being His company and not being able to escape. It isnt to late statsman though. Every sacrifice you make for God He gives back to you so much more.
[video=youtube;ALZthZy3TYQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZthZy3TYQ[/video]
 

statsman

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McTell

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No
..., could some one who wrote the below which seems to ring out of the Christian Middle Ages be honestly described as secular?

I could have borne stripes on my body rather than this shame of my people.....

Not a sound basis for government by, for and of the people.

Give me Thomas Jefferson (with a few slaves) any day.

This is the sad thing about 1916-23, Irish republicans had role models from Switzerland to the USA to the french 3rd republic, to follow, or change slightly, and ended up abdicating sovereignty to the church, the bank of england, and then the EU. Nul points!
 

roc_

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Did anyone read 2016: A New Proclamation for a New Generation by IBEC's Gerard O'Neill?

https://www.amazon.com/2016-New-Proclamation-Generation/dp/1856356906/

I did, but I forget it now. I recall it seemed fairly reasonable - though obviously written from the point of view of a combining of libertarian type of capitalism with "republicanism". A thoroughly modern view of things.
 

McTell

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No
.....

I did, but I forget it now. I recall it seemed fairly reasonable - ....

Yes. isn't aspirational life wonderful, everyone should sit in a big circle on the floor, hug each other and be happy.


[video=youtube;UeCtLgA5SnI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeCtLgA5SnI[/video]
 

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