Revisionist history: female warriors

D

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So! Is she guilty of war-crimes, brutality, and crimes against humanity. Should her bones be smashed to dust and scattered to the four winds. Should all knowledge of her be erased in case she encourages a following.
The judiciary does tend to hand out more lenient sentences to females felons, so I guess we should take the similar, softer view of famous wimmen warriors, like, errrrr.......



:rolleyes:
 


Malcolm Redfellow

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A good book on the Night witches is Anne Noggle's A Dance With Death: Soviet Airwomen in World War II

You can read it here: https://books.google.de/books?id=-ESSJzUOk2oC&pg=PA20&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The jury is still out on just how effective they were - did they ever hit anything, what damage did they cause?
There is, of course, an essential propaganda issue here.

In our local case, the women of 1916 had to be elided from the chauvinist record. That continued all the way down to the Kinder, Küche, Kirche and anti-feminism of the 1937 Constitution. Self-defeating, for it did for — among others — Dorothy Macardle's political adherence.

On the other hand, the WW2 Soviets did a strong buffing-up job with their "patriotic women". The Nachthexen were good "copy"; but the whole thing went OTT with Lyudmila Mykhailovna Pavlichenko, star of the 2,000 Soviet women snipers (309 confirmed "kills"):

Addendum:

Anyone who isn't with Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London stories should give them a try. He has Varvara Sidorovna, of the Nachthexen and a proper fictional witch, as a recurrent character in his graphic novels.
 
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Wilkinson

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This discussion reminds me of Lyudmila Pavlichenko, she had made 309 confirmed kills, including 36 enemy snipers, making her one of the deadliest snipers in history.
 

Fritzbox

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The judiciary does tend to hand out more lenient sentences to females felons, so I guess we should take the similar, softer view of famous wimmen warriors, like, errrrr.......



:rolleyes:
1990s flashback. Happy memories...:rolleyes:
 
D

Deleted member 45466

Better have a word with the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow.

The Institute does annual excavations around Voronezh, where there are quite a few kurgans — Scythian burial mounds, towards the northern edge of Scythian territories. Of 21 recent excavations, five have shown young women with weapons, bows-and-arrows and throwing spears. Much of Scythian art is less than gender specific: but why would a burial include an artificial beard?

The current theory is that the men-folk were charged with summer-time transhumation of the horses, while the women provided light defence of the home lands.

The British Museum exhibition on the Scythians runs for another few days. Well worth the trip.
The Scythians are fascinating. Now, a thread on Scythians would be very intriguing.

I don't know what the point of this thread is other than "Hey guys, women can fight too! Huzzah!"
 
D

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A good book on the Night witches is Anne Noggle's A Dance With Death: Soviet Airwomen in World War II

You can read it here: https://books.google.de/books?id=-ESSJzUOk2oC&pg=PA20&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The jury is still out on just how effective they were - did they ever hit anything, what damage did they cause?
I think what's made them appear to be fearsome opposition is the name the boche christened them with: like they were some supernal, unstoppable force, sneakily gliding over sleeping Germans and dropping bombs in their laps. Mostly propaganda I'd say.

They're great in 70s/80s comic books like Commando, mind. Of course the Germans are always portrayed as incompetent buffoons.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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This discussion reminds me of Lyudmila Pavlichenko, she had made 309 confirmed kills, including 36 enemy snipers, making her one of the deadliest snipers in history.
Sorry, Wilkinson: we collided there. Quick reprise of Woody Guthrie?

[video=youtube;SHKjOl9ocR0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHKjOl9ocR0[/video]
 

ger12

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Makes you uncomfortable thinking of having your ass kicked by a women? You'd think you'd be used to it having spent many a year on this site rubbing your behind.
 

Fellow

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There is, of course, an essential propaganda issue here.

In our local case, the women of 1916 had to be elided from the chauvinist record.
I’m a bit puzzled by this as the role of Countess Markievicz was always emphasized as was her background. Women didn’t otherwise have a major role in the Rising as one would have expected. What is the support for saying women were elided from the record?
 

RodShaft

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Who's to disagree?

I'd nominate:
  • Molly Adrian (though I think her real name was Mary Ellen Adrien) for her repeated bike rides "through enemy lines", that Ashe and the Fifth Battalion should have contact with the GPO (and intelligence about RIC movements across Fingal).
  • Maire Nic Shiubhlaigh was at Jacob's Biscuit Factory, and gave one of the best eye-witness accounts of the battering of the GPO.
  • Cumann na mBan had to be ordered out of the GPO — it took Seán Mac Diarmada forcibly backing up waffly Pearse before they would agree — late on the Friday morning of Easter week. The first shell arrived promptly on their grudging departure.
  • The Kilkenny Cumann were (later) more than tart in their comments about how the menfolk sat around debating, but not actually getting stuck in.
  • Marie Perolz of Inghinidhe na Éireann, on her motor-bike, all the way from Dublin to the brigades in Waterford, Cork, and Limerick, brought MacCurtain and MacSwiney the orders for the Rising. She was Markievicz's acolyte and surrogate, one of the seven women deported to English prisons (all "leftists" and not to be trifled with).
Oh, and add Caitlín, Bean Uí Chléirigh (wife of Tom). I encountered her the once — at an Irish-Soviet Friendship fund-raiser, which might indicate her political bent, so to speak. She was ordered by Tom to be nowhere near the Rising, for she was wholly privy to the planning. Her vitriol against those who, to her mind, rewrote the history to the disadvantage of her late husband and denigrating the women involved was something to encounter.
How many boys fulfilled similar rôles?
 

RodShaft

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Have a look at the figures for participant deaths.

One assumes they are a good approximation as to who got stuck in and who didn't...
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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RTE recently suggested that women and Socialists 'won'
the 1916 Rising...;)
oh yes, and the GPO was in the centre of Blanchardstown
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Have a look at the figures for participant deaths.

One assumes they are a good approximation as to who got stuck in and who didn't...
Poses a good question: why didn't you attempt an answer?

The Easter Week casualty lists are quite well known, though none is ever likely to be thoroughly comprehensive.

The Glasnevin Trust, working from interment records, comes up with 485 deaths: 126 Crown forces, 82 Volunteers, 17 RIC and constabulary — and 260 civilians.

That 485 seems to be the low end of other counts, which generally increase further civilian casualties. In any case, being a Moore Street costermonger seems far more likely to make one a victim than the lads and lasses holed up in their granite redoubt.

Joe Duffy took on the thirty known children killed in Easter Week (nine of them girls).
 

The_SR

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How many boys fulfilled similar rôles?
It's a response to Telstar trolling. The ICA allowed women not only fight, but positions of authority. That was unusual for the time. The counter revolution had to put them back in their box as they had notions then.
 

Maximus Cynicus

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surely female warriors who kill and die in action must constitute a tiny percentage of all warriors in history ?

imagine a world where the women did all the fighting while the men huddled back in the huts awaiting news from the battlefield ?
WHAT? You mean to tell me that the sistas haven't sought gender quotas in front line war as yet? Maybe it's a work in progress........
 

RodShaft

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Poses a good question: why didn't you attempt an answer?

The Easter Week casualty lists are quite well known, though none is ever likely to be thoroughly comprehensive.

The Glasnevin Trust, working from interment records, comes up with 485 deaths: 126 Crown forces, 82 Volunteers, 17 RIC and constabulary — and 260 civilians.

That 485 seems to be the low end of other counts, which generally increase further civilian casualties. In any case, being a Moore Street costermonger seems far more likely to make one a victim than the lads and lasses holed up in their granite redoubt.

Joe Duffy took on the thirty known children killed in Easter Week (nine of them girls).
Not a person for detail are you?

I said participants.


Not bystanders. You want to make a wider point about how you hate republicans, engage with someone else.

Less than 100 rebels killed.

Go sift those figures.
 

Catalpast

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Not a person for detail are you?

I said participants.


Not bystanders. You want to make a wider point about how you hate republicans, engage with someone else.

Less than 100 rebels killed.

Go sift those figures.
'Rebels'?

They were Insurgents

- not 'rebels'!:roll:
 


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